Anyone who's a Lib Dem and/or knows about how they work, please help!

If anyone is a member in Wales, and would like to comment on a topical motion proposed to Welsh conference that states TWAW - not sure if it has enough backing to go and deadline is 5pm tonight - there's a discussion in the closed conference group if you want to join in.

Complaints process for party members below- does anyone know a better approach?

www.libdems.org.uk/complaints_party_member

Members of the public can complain here www.libdems.org.uk/complaints_member_of_the_public

I'm guessing now would be a good time to get in letters of complaint if you are a member.

I've just seen that the LibDems investigating AC's membership

leftfootforward.org/2018/10/ex-green-party-spokesperson-aimee-challenors-application-to-join-lib-dems-under-review/

I did get a response from Layla in the past which at least made it seem that she was listening (and she's not my MP). But she is in a very dangerous position - and you only have to look at the way the knives came for Tim Farron (whatever you think of him the vicious way he was forced to resign was unseemly).

Just sharing for info really, this is the letter I sent to Layla Moran (who is my MP) and anyone who sent me a marketing email regarding their new directions. No response, nothing.

Dear Layla,

Thank you for your email. However, you have not answered a couple of questions I have asked before. Additionally with the latest news about Karen White, I have a couple more questions that I feel is pertinent to the LibDem view that “trans women are women”.

1. Setting aside the GRA consultation for a moment, if you are of the belief that Trans Women are Women, could you please tell me how you define trans? Do you agree with the Stonewall definition? If so, do you agree that cross dressing men and those who get sexual kicks from being a women are women, if they identify as such? It is estimated that around 80% of trans women have no surgery at all, their right to access women’s spaces is based simply on how they feel and their demand that women go along with them. Do you think all of those who identity as women are women, regardless of any kind of gender dysphoria or medical diagnosis? If you don’t agree with the stonewall definition than can you please define “trans”. I feel this is a crucial point. Please could you answer.

1. If there is a concern, as you state, about violent trans identifying men being housed alongside women in prisons (like Karen White), why are you not concerned about violent trans identifying men being allowed in other female spaces too such as hostels, hospital wards, dormitories, refuges, toilets and changing rooms? We do still have some sex based protections under the EA although they are become eroded as organisations so fearful of being labelled as transphobic are using gender rather than sex.

I welcome you assertion that prisons need to be looked at. However, I do not think you can hold both of these views:

a) Transwomen are always women. No question, no challenge, no dissent.
b) Some transwomen should be treated differently

These two positions are incompatible. Jess Phillips is trying to walk this line and is tying herself up in knots.

Apparently Karen White had abused and/or raped women and children at a women's jail, a mixed sex psychiatric ward, a bail hostel. If sex, not gender had been used in any of the places where vulnerable women were housed then there would not have been a problem.

Other questions I have asked numerous times and not had a response to:

3. What is your view on the girl guiding association completely ignoring NSPCC advice (although the NSPCC ignore their own advice too) that for safe guarding, privacy and dignity reasons there should be segregation based on sex (not gender) after the age of 10. How about the NSPCCs refusal to answer any questions about safeguarding in relation to their advice and stance being trans inclusive with no questions asked? Do you think a teenage girl has a right NOT to have to share a shower block or a tent with boy, regardless of how he identifies? Do you think that teenage girls parents should be told their daughter is sharing with a boy? How can parents give informed consent if they are not in possession of the facts? How do you feel about the fact some girls will be discriminated against by this policy?

4. Do you agree with your colleague Sarah Brown that women like me, and groups like A Womans Place are hate filled bigots (as she tweets about constantly).

I have every sympathy for people struggling with their identity and believe they have the right to live free from discrimination and judgement. I am liberal and have been all of my life. However, I am also a feminist and gender critical and believe gender is a social construct and that there is something about the rhetoric that is damaging and takes women back 50 years in terms of stereotypes. I think there is a small number of people with gender dysphoria (and women have been living side by side with this group of people for years with no drama). However there are too many people like this trans women on Twitter who said she would like to "direct a porn shoot with two beautiful trans woman and one lucky cis women" in reaction to someone saying she didn’t want to see a penis in a changing room. twitter.com/ZJemptv/status/1038338917177720833.

In all honestly I am aghast that any women supports self ID.Surely there can be no justification when the safety, privacy and dignity of women and children are at stake. As a mother, women and science teacher Layla I can only think that this is a political stance for you, rather than a personal one. Its such a shame that the strong women in politics at the moment are not actually standing up for women.

At the moment I am in a quandary and feel politically homeless as do many women. If you look at threads on Mumsnet, on Twitter and the comments on some of the latest articles written by a small number of very brave journalists on this you will find many, many women agree. You may find your party starts to have more and more questions of this nature and more push back on the TWAW stance.

Finally, can I ask if you, or someone from your party, would agree to meet with A woman’s Place or Fair Play for Women to discuss some of these concerns face to face? To show you are really listening to women’s groups.

Thank you
Tracy

The thing with the LDs and local politics is that because the party is federalised, the national party only has so much influence over local politics.

This means if your local LD party was 'TerfClub', then they would not be totalitarian on this issue. So find out out. Do your local research.

National politics is a different kettle of fish.

I believe the party asked the grassroots to cross borders and help other areas thought to be good targets at the last election. The withholding of this type of labour, would be a problem for them. They do not have the money for mass mailouts.

I've voted libdem in pretty much every local election (& several general elections), I guess I'm a natural liberal voter. I've spoken to the local party rep (who happens to be a neighbour) - he was pretty much oblivious (beyond the of course we shouldn't discriminate against transsexuals) & quite horrified when I showed him the LGBT+LibDem twitter feed. I can't possibly vote for a party that has such a public hatred of women though.

BEING liberal in practice and having a liberal identity are currently not necessarily the same thing.

This is the unavoidable problem for the LDs.

Being Liberal means asking questions and holding power to account. When power is running riot and not allowing itself to be held to account, it cease to be liberal.

I am not a member but was active in canvassing for votes (online) for Layla Moran in the last election. I have written to her several times and just get the same party line bullshit from her. I have tried to pin her down. Nothing. Our local council is Lib dem and they have been great on local issues but I saw one of them liking all of Sarah and Zoe's comments on the Cambridge toilets thread on LM Facebook page back in August.

I am going to start challenging them all. I'm not a member - they can't throw me out!

This is all helpful information.

I am politically homeless.

If you are a member. Don't leave. Let them kick you out and demonstrate the point.

Since everything counts as transphobia if you ask a polite question to a trans person or ask questions around the subject of trans people it's just a way of winning an argument by abusing status within the party.

The fact is liberal values Do Not centre around trans politics.

When this is pointed out - without even mentioning trans issues - transphobia still seems to be being shouted.

Because in Sarah's world there is only one way to be "liberal".

The words liberal and compromise and balance are undivisible sisters. The Liberal Democrats are cultural going through an identity crisis of their own about what they are and what they should stand for.

We should all use this thread to give them hints as to where its all gone wrong...

Clue: do they know what liberalism actually is and where it comes from and it's history? The answer seems to be a big fat no. And whilst that's the case, they lack any real purpose as a political force.

Yep, and in other Ld groups I've seen people crowing with delight at the removal of the terf.

Fair enough that the Radical Association chooses its own chair according to its principles and aims.

Not fair to delegitimise the views of that chair, to cast her out as an unperson. To use her as an example of what will happen to you if you speak up

Rather totalitarian. And misogynistic.

I too am politically homeless these days, after withdrawing my support from Labour.

I was all set to join the Lib Dems. At one point after the last election I thought that I might have a rather good chance at the leadership... But, alas!

Is Lord Ashdown still around? He strikes me as pretty sensible.

The radical association were in no way transparent about what sins the woman concerned committed. They just said they were 'transphobic' that's it. No further explanation or clarification.

It was utterly disgraceful for a party which has used strap lines which included the words 'fair' and 'transparent'. You know those Liberal Democrat principles Sarah. The ones that all members are supposed to share. If that's how justice in the party works, fuck me it better not get near power.

Is it true that the LDs have just updated their logo and strap line, and have dropped this?

Also I know the LDs are pretty pissed off about fake news. So can you explain to me why the LGBT Lds peddled the fake news about the razor blades. When someone did the ringing around to the police and it transpired that it was a load of bollocks, why didn't the LGBT Lds remove the post? Was it because it suited your agenda to not issue a correction. If you share the belief that many lib Dems have that fake news is damaging and dangerous why didn't you do this. If you don't share this value why are you in the party.

Sarah I hope you are reading.

It would be nice to engage on this issues and the entire concept of Liberal values.

Great post Red

I will check the LD site to see if it has "silencing dissent" in the Our Values section.

Sarah Brown wonders why people who don't share their values want to be members.

Because Sarah, seeing as you are reading this, liberal traditions rest on the value of debate and bringing people along with you in a debate not imposing a particular view on others.

Because that's liberalism. A tolerance for others and understanding a broad spectrum of ideas and looking for a way to accommodate different values and beliefs.

An understanding of education through engagement and understanding the fundamental principles of democracy.

The LDs are NOT a single policy party either. Much as that must irk you.

If you are remotely interested in representing others you need to accept that they 'shock horror' have different priorities and problems which are very much at odds with your own. And whilst you might not agree with them as an elected representative you should understand where they are coming from and if they have a problem help them.

As others say, it's almost as if the LD hierachy have stopped listening to the grassroots because they have disappeared up their own arises in their special safe echo chamber.

If you are not prepared to expose yourself to difficult ideas and people and be ideologically challenged then you are not fit to stand as a public representative.

The trans issue is a sideshow to that. It should be a universal principle that all liberals understand. If you call yourself a Liberal at least understand the over Riding central pillar of liberalism.

I know several LD members who come from an eastern European background who are utterly horrified at the 1984 tones of modern politics and the manipulation of language and silencing. One of them is considerably older than you and has been in the party for, well forever. When did you join? If you didn't share his values why did you join the party?

Honestly. Your thinking and logic all centres on you. No one else. That why so many have a problem. Not because you are trans.

They would (hell I would!) be very sorry if they knew they were set to lose keen volunteers (and votes) because the groups in the centre were acting like a very adherent branch of a minor totalitarian party.

I suggest you circulate links to the Ocado boycott threads to those responsible for promoting membership. The LibDem voting patterns and Ocado delivery maps would have a fair degree of correlation. TRAs have been very good at entryism, essentially seizing the policy agenda in Stonewall and from there promoting that agenda via diversity roles, advice and training across the public and third sectors and major organsiations such as banks. The problem for political parties is that this agenda does not carry votes. 82% of the population struggle to accept self-ID. So Lib-Dems have a choice. Be woke and see voters head off to their competitors.

Here is the woman who chaired the lib dem Radical Association being expelled from that position, back in March 2018

The LD's Radical Association voted 89% in No Confidence in their Chair who, in this powerfully liberal summary from our friend Hickey:

For those who haven't been following this, the chair in question turned out to be a TERF. This is what we think of TERFs in the Lib Dems.

mobile.twitter.com/HickeyWriter/status/971547308608368640

From this thread.

OP I am with you on this. Do we need a campaign group of our own?

An Actually Radical Group Hub? - AARGH

I still can't believe that posting Jane Clare Jones is viewed as thoughtcrime in the lib dems.

[from the Aimee C thread]

I'm an active lib dem member and am very keen to broaden the arguments on this. I think Red's advice on the other thread to engage with your local party is a very good one. They would (hell I would!) be very sorry if they knew they were set to lose keen volunteers (and votes) because the groups in the centre were acting like a very adherent branch of a minor totalitarian party.

Not the third party of the UK yes I know the snp...

They are watching mumsnet....

One of the group members has posted that people with transphobic views has shared details of what is happening.

Sarah Brown wonders why people who don't share their values want to be members.

So this is the lib dems women's group not allowing women to voice concerns about the proposed amendments to the Gender Recognition Act. A piece of legislation currently in place.

Are any other lib dem groups so censorious? Are people allowed to hold different views in other areas such as Brexit?

Or is it only questioning the definition of a woman that causes immediately expulsion?

The problem is it needs enough members to know about the subject for a debate or it will be dominated by the usual suspects. Particularly because the are one issue fanatics.

I'm a member. I'm not in England. Someone is trying to get a topical motion to our national conference on TWAW.

I'm not engaging because I don't have the energy to fight it articulately. I've had a horribly stressful day at work. But potentially if this goes to conference then it's an opportunity for debate at least.