I gave all my classes this riddle this week - 3 kids got the answer.

Recommending Horrid Henry books to everyone on this thread whose DC are the right age.

It’s great. Female doctor, Mum has a female boss, Dad makes the packed lunches etc etc.

IME it’s easy to find children’s books with good role models for feisty young girls. Much much harder to find children’s books with good role models and shared parenting by the older generation (ie the mums and dads in the books).

sorry, Lweji, what I meant was, people are dismissing it and saying it is nonsense and everyone knows doctors can be women, and this shows nothing.
My point is that when you take out the linguistic bias, and use other means, people STILL think men first when you say doctor.

For all of you saying that this is linguistic bias, and everyone knows that doctors can be women, the point isn't that we don't KNOW that doctors can be women, of course we know, but that we have an unconscious bias to assume man when someone says the word doctor, or surgeon.

Those who suggested linguistic bias it's to do with the repeated mention of father and son. Which is independent of the association of doctor or surgeon with men. That is why some people have tested it with using daughter instead of son.

For all of you saying that this is linguistic bias, and everyone knows that doctors can be women, the point isn't that we don't KNOW that doctors can be women, of course we know, but that we have an unconscious bias to assume man when someone says the word doctor, or surgeon.

This is thoroughly backed up by the example given of the children asked to draw pictures:

draw a firefighter
draw a doctor/surgeon
draw a fighter pilot

nearly every single child drew them as male.

My 13 year old son got it in about 2 seconds.

Will have to try the other 2 tomorrow.

I read it and got it straight away. Thought maybe it was because I saw it on feminism board so had that bias in my head already. So I just asked dp, didn't mention where I'd seen it. He got it straight away. Ds, at only 1, is too young to ask! Interesting though.

Re the BOB riddle - most people would make the assumption that Bob was a man's name, and not many will see it as a woman's name - and the bias would come from there. I would be likely to do so. I definitely wouldn't make an assumption that a lawyer was always a man - though DH is one, most of his colleagues are women

The supposed bias in the Bob riddle is not that Bob is a man's name but that all of the characters are men so the detective can't tell which of the surgeon, lawyer or mechanic is Bob.

What’s the bob riddle?

A surgeon, a lawyer and a mechanic are in a room. A detective is next door. The detective hears someone shout "no Bob" followed by a gun shot. The detective rushes in and immediately arrests Bob. How did he know which one was Bob?

Clearly the answer is the detective knew which one was Bob because there were 2 women and only 1 man in the room - Bobbie Gentry aside "Bob" not being a common girls' name.

Lord only knows why that would be difficult but apparently the expected (wrong) answer, according to some feminists on here will be - how could the detective know? because everyone is so biased and sexist they think only men can be surgeons, lawyers or mechanics so there would be 3 men in the room.

Me, 45, thought they were same sex parents.
Ds1, 14, said the grandfather was the doctor and was talking about the dad.
Ds2, 11, thought they were same sex parents.
We're all shocked at our gender stereotype.
Dh, who has heard the one about pilots knew the answer! I'm never going to hear the last of it, the time he was right!

I knew what this riddle would be before I opened the thread (although the word "surgeon" is used in the version I'd read).

But today gay couples can and do marry, can do have children, are seen as a family(as they should). There isn't just one possible answer.

I think this is what DD was struggling with and why she didn't just come up with mum immediately. At 11y, when her school did this initially, that would have been her first answer. Now she is older and knows more about other family models in today's climate and the need to be inclusive of everyone - she thought more and was trying to come up with so many other options.

What’s the bob riddle?

I'm trying to think of a gender-neutral job title which is more associated with women too,

Primary school teacher.
Nurse
Nursery Nurse
Childminder

All gender neutral job titles. All seen traditionally as woman's jobs, so people still make assumptions about that.

They had this as a starter riddle at DD's all girls school. Many of the parents are medics and pretty much all of the girls rightly identified the doctor as a woman, and his mum. But then they are surrounded by female doctors. Though DD did come up with various options, stating it was clearly the child's other parent - but that it could be his mum, or a step parent, adopted parent, a second dad as in same sex couple and so on.

Re the BOB riddle - most people would make the assumption that Bob was a man's name, and not many will see it as a woman's name - and the bias would come from there. I would be likely to do so. I definitely wouldn't make an assumption that a lawyer was always a man - though DH is one, most of his colleagues are women.

I asked a couple of friends (who are a lesbian couple). One got it immediately, the other said "Does he have two dad's?" I was their 10yo niece got it almost immediately, which pleased me!

@LassWiADelicateAir
I keep coming back to my post on this thread where I reversed the sexes of the characters involved and although I know that the answer is that the doctor is the girl's father, when I'm reading the text all i can picture is a woman in a white doctor's coat. I'm sure it's to do with my brain subconsciously adding a "she" before the word "exclaims".

I got it wrong and my sister is a doctor

Which would tend to support it is the linguistics which produces the wrong answer.

Ingrained sexism might be the answer- I don't think it is. I do think for an English teacher to leap to that assumption, without considering any other possibility, and then lecture her class on feminism shows poor critical analysis.

My year 6 DD got it right. I must be winning as a parent ;-)

Ds7 got this in under a minute. Ds8 claims he was just about to say the same.

I got it wrong and my sister is a doctor. 🤦‍♀️

So proud - my 7 year old daughter just said ‘the doctor is his mum’ without hesitation!

@ErrolTheDragon

I'll join you and have a or over this.

My 8 yr old ds and 13 yr old dd got the Doctor riddle and the Bob riddle correct.
My 4 year old answered "poo poo bum" so still a way to go there!

Meanwhile, I'm going to publicly embarrass myself with why I'm horribly aware of ingrained sexist biases.

A few years ago, DD mentioned her new chemistry teacher, Dr xxx. Without any thought, I asked something like 'is he any good?'.

This was in a girls school with majority female staff, some PhDs of both sexes. The new chemistry teacher was there because the previous one was on maternity leave.
Bad enough? There's more...
I'm a PhD chemist. My boss is a female PhD chemist. About half my close colleagues are female PhD scientists.

Yet I still heard 'chemistry teacher Dr X' and automatically thought 'he'.

I'm pleased to report that DS, 13, is both clever and a feminist. He immediately said it was the mother.
(While putting his own mother to shame. Although, she has clearly done a great job raising him. )