“Transwomen should be treated on female wards”

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3297578-NHS-confuse-sex-and-gender-on-advice-about-The-Mental-Health-Act

January 2018 Lancaster Guardian:
(extract)
"A Lancaster mum whose bi-polar disorder left her believing men were conspiring to kill her said she was left terrified when she was locked on a women’s psychiatric ward with an “extremely male-bodied” transgender patient. Philippa Molloy, 42, said she was “genuinely, absolutely terrified” because she had suffered a relapse in her condition that made her irrationally terrified of men – including her own husband.

When she raised her concerns with hospital staff, however, she said she was not taken seriously and her medical notes implied that she was a “transphobic bigot”. She said the NHS had failed to think through the implications of allowing patients to self-identify their gender." (continues)

www.lancasterguardian.co.uk/news/lancaster-mum-with-fear-of-men-locked-on-hospital-ward-with-transgender-patient-1-8963648

What kind of sick fuck would name themselves Christyl Knight?

All hospital trusts will have two relevent policies. One is the same sex ward /accomodation policy and the other the transgender policy. They both need to be read together. I have seen a few recently and they seem to be in conflict.

Solent NHS Trust:
The NHS Constitution, 2013, p3 states that respect, dignity, compassion and care should be at the core of how patients and staff are treated.
The Handbook to the NHS Constitution, March 2013, p 42 states that providers of NHS care are expected to eliminate mixed sex accommodation except where it is in the best interest of the patient involved, or reflects their personal choice.
High Quality Care for All (2008), Lord Darzi’s review of the NHS, identifies the need to organise care around the individual, ‘not just clinically but in terms of dignity and respect’.
The Chief Nursing Officer’s report on privacy and dignity (2007) identifies samesex accommodation as a ‘visible affirmation’ of the NHS’ commitment to privacy and dignity.
www.solent.nhs.uk/_store/documents/cls09deliveringsamesexaccomodation2015.pdf

In some trusts, it is possible to see where/when and by whom a same sex ward/accomodation policy has been modified /updated to include the transgender policy eg UHSM (Tara Hewitt)

CQC guidance (2015)www.cqc.org.uk/sites/default/files/20150328%20CQC%20mental%20health%20brief%20guide%20-%20Same-sex%20accommodation.pdf

Within the transgender policy also be aware of the policy guidelines for children eg From Yorkshire and Humber Protocol:
(extract)
"Gender variant children and young people should be accorded the same respect for their self-defined gender as are Tran’s adults, regardless of their genital sex.
Where there is no segregation, as is often the case with children, there may be no requirement to treat a young gender variant person any differently from other children and young people. Where segregation is deemed necessary, then it should be in accordance with the dress, preferred name and/or stated gender identity of the child or young person.
In some instances, parents or those with parental responsibility may have a view that is not consistent with the child’s view. If possible, the child’s preference should prevail even if the child is not Gillick competent.
www.barnsleyhospital.nhs.uk/equalitydiversity/files/2012/01/Providing-Hospital-Services-to-Trans-Patients-Protocol-2012.pdf

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/30/mixed-sexed-wards-endanger-and-humiliate-women

Theres a reason we phased them out. I actually dispair
Esp important on MH ward. My mate was a MH in patient support worker and she told me how disruptive men self-IDing as women were on ward. Most women victims of assault and it's very traumatic. Then you see evidence like this.

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/sep/11/nhs-care-regulator-says-sexual-incidents-commonplace-in-mental-health-units

www.theguardian.com/society/2002/apr/24/mentalhealth

You don't go on the gynae ward unless you are having gynae surgery which they won't be, so......

Not true

As a social worker I can categorically state that I regularly discharge people from the gynae ward that are not there for any gynaecological reasons.

For the last 10 years I have been in practise this has mainly meant that women that can't be squeezed on to the appropriate surgical/general wards get chucked to the gynae wards where their appropriate medical treatment is subsequently sidelined and ignored.

It's not the fault of the staff on that ward, if you are a medical professional specialising in vaginas and wombs it's hardly surprising that you are a bit stuck when the surgical team chucks you a female appendectomy to look after, or a female with alcoholic ascites excuse no one else can be arsed to deal with her.

Wimmins problems innit.

Only now women without vaginas or a uterus can also be transferred to the gynae wards too.

Fuck me

Some are, some aren't, just like other people, welsh. But whether an individual is the nicest individual in the world is actually beside the point.

Regardless of their intentions, if you're a woman on a surgical ward with, say, a catheter poking out from under your surgical gown, unable to wear knickers because of it. you might find what was already an awkward and embarrassing and undignified experience made even worse if you had to share your bay of the ward with a male-bodied individual, however that individual chose to conceptualise themselves.

And if you were on a psychiatric ward, struggling with some sort of mental health issue, the cognitive dissonance required to tell yourself that this male-bodied person was a woman really might be quite literally beyond your mental capacities, and be intensely distressing, to the point of making your mental illness worse. (Someone linked to a newspaper article where another woman on a closed psych ward, suffering from PTSD brought on by sexual abuse, was having psychotic episodes such that any male-bodied individual was triggering to her. She couldn't even be around her own husband. The HCPs put a male-bodied individual on the ward, with obvious results, then criticised her for her transphobia when she had a full-on breakdown.)

"This whole argument is confusing me. Are transwomen sexual predators or not??"

Single sex spaces exist for a very good reason. It doesn't matter whether a male identifies as a man or a woman, they're still not female and a vulnerable woman on a ward has enough to worry about.

Having men in the postnatal ward was bad enough. Horrible feeling.

pom I agree. That's why the way Posie explains it, "what is a woman," "should my daughter have to see a penis in her changing room," and then gradually moving on the conversation is very smart.
People do shut down, almost like a protective mechanism.

How would you propose the subject be broached?

It's a gradual process, but people need to be asked questions to start thinking about it. Nobody just changes their mind, but you need to sow those seeds of critical thought. Even if the person decides to retain their original position after hearing all the arguments, at least they have THOUGHT ABOUT IT.

I am tempted to put up picture of Jess Bradley. Ask male or female ward for this non-binary trans woman? Ask how you are going to explain this to your concerned frail female patient from a different cultural background (try translating trans ideology to someone whose native tongue is not English)? Ask if that patient has a right to object to Bradley's presence in the space where she feels most vulnerable? Ask whether the penis exhibition allegations make a difference to risk assessment? Check whether she knows that Jess Bradley is a high profile trans activist still employed by the NUS and fully under the trans umbrella? Ask where the line is for female ward allocation, and is there any circumstance where a biological male who says they identify as a woman would NOT be allowed to stay on a female space?

I think its not so much saying transwomen are sexual predators, although pp above said transwomen inc men who get off being in womens clothes. More its men who can be dangerous, irrespective of how they ‘feelz’

Fuck this shit.

This whole argument is confusing me. Are transwomen sexual predators or not??

My eldest daughter is on a single sex psychiatric secure ward (private but NHS funded), for women with personality disorders, psychosis etc. It would be disastrous to put a transwomen in with the women on her ward. But I'm thinking the way things are going, this is a very real possibility!

I've had a great deal of hospital treatment, including 2 major spinal surgeries, I was totally unable to even turn myself over in bed after both. I had catheters and and also had nurses changing my sanitary towels and washing me as I could do none of this myself.

No way would it have been appropriate for me to be on a mixed ward. Apart from the dignity and privacy aspects, the thought of being trapped and unable to move myself, if men had been on the ward too would have been unbearable, especially as a survivor of sexual violence.

There arent any mixed wards where i work ild? Do you mean single sex bays within a ward?

A lot of non specific surgical wards are mixed so horrific, uncomfortable places to stay. I just don't understand the point of even saying transwomen should be on female wards. They will be put where they need to be. You don't go on the gynae ward unless you are having gynae surgery which they won't be, so......

Starzig no they're not. Though more wards are single rooms now than was the case when the NHS did its last experiment with mixed wards in the early 90s. They were just getting rid of it under the cosh of public opinion when i joined in 1996.

Because fantasy: efficient use of resources and a cosy ward resembling normal life. Reality: 52 year old 6ft Frank with a knee replacement, detoxing from alcohol and sexually disinhibited, on the same 4 bed bay as 92 year old Mary in for a hip replacement, who weighs 35 kg and has moderate dementia.

Trans people will all pass much better when they are very elderly but it won't stop sexually mixed wards being a Bad Thing. I think mostly it's managed now by use of sude rooms, which would normally be for the infectious or the dying.

ARRRRGGGHHHH!!!

Actually the regulations would require trusts to report and be penalised for admitting pre operative trans women to female wards. The rules require patients to be cared for overnight in single sex accommodation not single gender. The exceptions are critical care, emergency units and recovery areas.
That said, I’m not sure it’s actually a huge problem and it might be a valid use of a side ward.

No staff agree with it
It seems that's very common with regards to this topic.

I thought most wards were mixed now anyway

This is already happening
I work for an NHS trust and it is clearly in our equality and diversity training. No staff agree with it. NHS clinicians know what a man is and what a woman is.

Nudging threadagain - Olivia is at Step One ' trans women are women'.

She won't get straight to 'transwomen are men, they may require a whole different space and oh, by the way, 'transwomen' is a shed load of definitions which include Miranda, Fionne, Debbie, Paris, Jane Fae, Paris Lees, Tara Hudson, Karen White' ...where're you're going to go Olivia' stage.

Many of us have had to go through many experiences to get there.

WTF is wrong with people? Have their brains all fallen out? People in hospital are vulnerable. They can't defend themselves. That's the last place on earth you should be forcing women to share spaces with males.

If they want access to services that are appropriate to women then they can quite happily take my place for next month's mammogram.

Oh wait they are probably not 40 and have an increased chance of breast cancer.

I am more angry at the minimising of a lot of women's health issues*

*Yes I know men can get breast cancer, but they sure as heck can't get cervical (etc) cancer however they try to identify.