'women don't have penises'

I'm happy to share private same sex spaces with transwomen. I honestly don't think a man would go through the long, stressful and complex process of becoming trans just so he could go into a female space to "perv" or whatever.

Simply put, if a man really wanted to perv or commit a sex offence of some sort there are numerous means of doing so that are far easier than becoming trans.

Hmm, this is an eye opening thread for me for the wrong reasons.

I have been following this debate very closely (under various usernames) and have been spending an awful lot of time thinking about it and getting other people on board. But I struggle with some of what is being said here.

Where does that leave post operative transmen (ftm)? presumably not in the women's changing rooms since they have a body part resembling a penis and they present as a male. So presumably you want men, post operative transwomen with no dangling bits (mtf) post operative transmen (ftm) with dangling bits all in the male changing rooms??

I am very vocal on this and actively trying to peak the people around me but you've alienated me with this stance and that would indicate to me that you'll probably alienate others who are less on board in the first place.

Might just be me though.

We Women -adult human female and girls- have a right to say who we have in our spaces, changing rooms, dormitories, rape crisis centres.

We have a right to request a same sex Doctor, Nurse, we have a right to keep all women's short lists/ women sport/ etc for women.

We have a right to have spaces and time away from men. We have a right to talk about ourselves and our bodies without it being labelled as hate speech.

I'm with Lang we have been pushed and hounded into a situation where sex segregation is the only option now, making it illegal to violate that. TRA have fucked it totally for transexuals.

The safety issues aren’t just about penises and the threat of rape. Men are also physically stronger etc.

But that’s actually based in nothing I now realise.

I think my feeling is than a post-operative transwomen never really had the inclinations for male violence of their counterparts which is why they chose to change their sex in the belief that they’re not like other men.

Men who self ID as women offer no such assurance.

Yeah, again I am not and have never been comfortable with a male in female spaces and whether or not they get their penis surgically changed or whatever happens, makes little difference to me and how I feel. The threat and discomfort still exists. I think the focus on the penis is the wrong focus and sounds a bit silly. I know they do have rights if they are post-op, but thats why I avoid public spaces. I know a male bodied person when I see one and I do not need to check for a penis to do so.

I'm with Vicky.
A male without a penis is not a female, even if said penis is turned inside out and used to make a front hole.
Anyway as there is no way of knowing if the penis has been retained then it has to be no males in women's spaces, penis or not - no ifs, ands or buts

I'm not. They retain any predisposition to male violence they had prior to surgery and are usually bigger and stronger than almost all women.

Also, their reason for penis not making the difference is the same as our reason: how is anybody supposed to know whether a penis lurks or not?

I used to think it would be possible not to throw old school transsexuals under the bus but I'm three years into this now and no longer think anything other than sex segregation will keep the arseholes out.

Also, how do we know when someone has had meaningful surgery? Is that another thing we have to take on trust?

I agree that there is far more to this than the threat/fear of physical and sexual violence.

I think there are two main issues, really, and they overlap. One is the safety issue and that definitely relates to penis-retention; the other is the threat to sex-based rights based on the redefinition of woman. If every transwoman gave up their penis the latter problem would remain.

The penis issue is easier to communicate as it is concrete; the sex-based rights one is difficult because it is abstract.

Telling someone most transwomen have penises conjures up an image which is, frankly, comical - but what does a sex-based right look like?

Both pennydrew and Vicky raise good points. I am not sure how I feel about the issue. Before, I would have agreed with penny, but Vicky's points are thought-provoking.

I’m happy to share private same sex spaces with post operative trans women. There’s a physical removal of danger and a very clear intentionality there.

I'm not. They retain any predisposition to male violence they had prior to surgery and are usually bigger and stronger than almost all women.

James Kirkup The Spectator 19/8/2018:
'Is it a crime to say ‘women don’t have penises’?
(extract)
"For some, the basic question posed here is: Do women have a legal right to say No to being in an enclosed private space with a person who has a penis? And the current law, as it is applied, does not say an unqualified Yes to that question. Proposals to allow people to change gender on the basis of their own self-declaration (without, for instance, a medical diagnosis) leave some women even more concerned that they will have no meaningful legal right to exclude people with penises from their spaces.

Hence the stickers. Women in several parts of the U.K. are printing and distributing stickers saying “women don’t have penises”, in order to bring to wider public attention what they see as the basic facts of the transgender issue. To others, these stickers are hurtful and offensive, a position captured in this report from Pink News."(continues)

concludes:
And here’s Joe Anderson, elected mayor of Liverpool:

“We will remove stickers and work with the Police to identify those responsible.”

It’s traditional to end columns like this by making an argument or a point, but in this case, I think the most eloquent comment I can make about Britain today and the state of the transgender debate is just to restate the facts and let readers draw their own conclusions: A feminist group is today facing the prospect of investigation by a police force and a City mayor for saying “women don’t have penises”.

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/08/is-it-a-crime-to-say-women-dont-have-penises/

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3364329-Motion-against-Liverpool-ReSisters-by-Liverpool-City-Council

It's more about getting the information out that that post-op transwomen have penises.

They don't. Not in the traditional sense. Their penis has been turned into a hole to represent a vagina. I thought the key message was that the vast majority of transgender mtf chose to retain their penises and not have bottom surgery - which is a completely different thing.

I am on board with the majority of what we are saying on this board but I think you lose the sympathy of the 'common man' when you venture into the realms of post op (bottom surgery) people. That's the point at which the accusations of bigotry will be made.

I’m happy to share private same sex spaces with post operative trans women. There’s a physical removal of danger and a very clear intentionality there. That’s a life choice and one that is not considered lightly. But self-ID potentially predatory males with a fully functioning penis and on occasion a penchant for preying on vulnerable women? Fuck that.

The problem with the Y chromosome is that women with Androgen insensitivity an intersex condition actually do.

I don't know. I'm perfectly happy to share a space with a tw who had had her penis turned into a penis vagina. Visually I doubt I could tell the difference without looking closely and the penis no longer presents a pore tial danger to me. It transwomen who have had this surgery want to use female spaces I don't see the harm.

What is a 'hard line stance'? There is more to a man than his penis... in that i can tell as can almost everyone, by looking at a person, whether I can see genitals or not. So there is still a valid concern regarding comfort and culture. Culturally, we separate the sexes. Culturally we have all grown up in sex separated spaces and our comfort is of equal importance to our safety IMO.

I think you have to be very careful. Many of the very valid concerns are centred around the fact that many transwomen retain their male genitals (in original form). If a person has undergone reassignment surgery then they have protection under the legislation (which has been in place for years).

Whilst you are still correct in that it doesn't turn a post op man (or someone in the process) into a biological woman, it does currently give them a different set of rights. Our arguments/position are weakened when we take this hard line stance.

So although I dont dare click on BettyduMonde's link at work, I am now imagining a group of men who possibly really would be able to fuck themselves. Oo er Mrs.