'women don't have penises'

Yes, what Charlie the feminist said. That's what I try to say. I don't understand why NO doesn't mean no anymore. It frightens me.

I've only read page 1 and I admit that freely. I do struggle to write, or type, in the accepted way so if I'm rude I apologise. I don't want to have to accept TW with penises, or TW with neo vaginas in my intimate spaces. I don't hate TW. They are men though, and my own personal life experiences make me avoid men, especially in intimate situations, and I'm not wrong to say that. I'm really really struggling with this ideology at the moment. People want me to lie and I can't do that.

Yeah, I’ve changed my mind. You’re right. I’m sort of done. You know when you offer tea and then everyone wants one so you’re just like, ‘Fine. No tea for anyone.’ I’m there.

Even if you don't mind post-SRS trans males in women's spaces - HOW WILL YOU KNOW BEFORE THEY COME IN AND GET THEIR KIT OFF?

Hardly anyone "passes".

Yes.
I have no objection to women exiting women's spaces into spaces shared with all the lovely post op transwomen they like.
I just wish they would learn not to give consent on my behalf to them disrespecting my boundaries and those of other women.

Barracker There's some of that 'I'm happy to have the post-op TWs in the showers with me" thing going on over on AIBU. It's very tiring, isn't it?

Apologies all
I actually meant a different transgender rapist called Karen.
To clarify:
Karen White, convicted rapist, transferred to women's prison, committed assaults there, still has penis (referenced in assaults)
Karen JONES, convicted rapist AND murderer, transferred to women's prison, GOT A GRC and subsequently surgery.

I get my transgender rapists called Karen mixed up. Silly me.

Question: which rapist called Karen is preferable in women's spaces? The one without the GRC, or the one with GRC and a conviction for manslaughter who has no penis?

The second Karen is out of jail now, living in West Yorkshire, and free to use the sex segregated spaces of his choice, which are female, naturally, since he is an 'old school transexual' of the type I keep hearing we women and our little girls are fine with in women's spaces.

I agree with pp though as a point of info Karen White has not had may operation - in the recent assaults victims in prison mention his penis. (I cannot type "her penis" about a rapist)

Charliethefeminist, you've hit the nail on the head. Your description of penis surgery made me wince, I wonder about the surgeons who do it and who invented it. It's hardly life saving.

After recently finding out the horrific potential consequences for transition surgery and hormones I think it should only be a last resort for people who have tried everything else and cannot possibly continue without it. I don’t think people with penises should be in women’s spaces and I don’t feel penis surgery to get in women’s spaces should be touted as an acceptable solution and vice versa. If we need additional spaces for everyone to feel comfortable then so be it.

If my brother, or your dad tragically lost their penis in an accident, would we bring them in with us to the changing rooms and be astonished that other women didn't feel comfortable? Does a man losing his penis make him less of a man? Is a penisless man basically an outcast, diminished, might-as-well-be-a-woman?

Does my discomfort at changing in front of my dad disappear if he is impotent?

No?

There are still two sexes, and my sex, in particular, deserves to retain the right to privacy and dignity. My boundaries are absolute.

Oh, and for those posters who feel that having the op means a chap is now enchanting and harmless, let's just have a think about some men who have surgically transitioned and assess how much we feel women should embrace them:
Jane Fae/John Ozimek, hard core pornography defender of the 'domestic violence gone wrong' comments.
Sarah Brown, ex Cambridge city counsellor, of "suck my formaldehyde pickled balls" fame
India Willoughby, of the 'women with unshaved legs are dirty' comments, of the enraged tantrum, spitting "I am a woman, let that PENETRATE' at a group of women who were bending over backwards to pretend for him.
Karen White. Convicted rapist and murderer.

That's a no to them all for me. I hope they had other motivations for the operation than just forcing their way into any space females might be. Because this female is saying no.

Men remain men, regardless of what they do with their penises.
Some of them are as vile and as dangerous as men who remain intact.
And I remain as different from a penisless man as I am from an intact man.

The reward for having surgery isn't the demolishing of women's boundaries.

Cut off your genitalia: achievement unlocked!
Nope.

That isn't how this is going to work.

I am not some bloke's consolation prize for undergoing castration, and the sooner men realise that women's rights are not a level to be unlocked in a computer game when you gain the right amount of points, the sooner they will see us as humans fundamentally different from themselves who have boundaries that will not be breached.

I think we are talking at cross purposes. The OP was saying that a post op transwoman (mtf) still has a penis (albeit inverted and turned into an approximation of a vagina) and should therefore be excluded from female spaces.

My point was that many people will not be with the OP on that one. It could well unpeak people (it's caused me significant concern since that is a step backwards in terms of inclusion and equality IMO - although I am in agreement that a post op transwoman is still a transwoman and does not biologically become a woman).

It's a completely different point to educating people so that they know that most transwomen don't have bottom surgery. I suspect this isn't common knowledge and would peak a lot of people.

I am aware that most transmen (ftm) don't have bottom surgery but I was using those who do to illustrate my point.

I am happy to share space with a dysphoric trans woman who has gone through the process legally and is taking hormones and heading for surgery or has had surgery. As someone else said somewhere, they are like naturalised immigrants in the country of woman. I feel quite protective of the transsexual (their term before anyone pulls me on it) women I know.

I have the common problems with self-ID etc

User, there is indeed, but the pp did not mention post op persons. Many members of the public however do believe that “trans gender” means someone who has or is on way to having surgery. It’s important to correct that misconception

You would see someone presenting as a male and with male genitalia.

The vast majority of transmen do not, at present, tend to have phalloplasty because the results are very poor.

Re transmen, again we can identify these people and I am comfortable with them in female spaces. I don't know of any woman who isn't.

I'm sorry for your circumstances but I'm not sure you would always identify these people. You would see someone presenting as a male and with male genitalia. There are certainly huge numbers of women who for religious and cultural reasons would not be able to share a changing room with such a person.

It's very difficult once you say that it isn't about the genitalia. The argument logically takes you to four separate spaces male, female, transman, transwoman.

well I have been raped and assaulted, more than once and I do not want to share spaces with anyone not female. I mean, am I the only one that has seen how post op transwomen speak about us? That Munroe person? Hello? They do not respect us. At the end of the day, many women will not be comfortable around biological males in their spaces regardless. As long as one woman is uncomfortable, it should not be allowed. Re transmen, again we can identify these people and I am comfortable with them in female spaces. I don't know of any woman who isn't.

Tracyracer there is no complicated or long process involved in becoming trans, what gave you that idea?

No, but there is in becoming a post op trans person

I don't reckon anyone who's had that op is going to be a threat. They've made a hell of a commitment and have disabled the male weapon. They deserve the honorary title. But it's a bit like an honorary doctorate: they aren't actually qualified.
As for people who simply put on a dress: I'd like to know what they think a woman actually is.

Tracyracer there is no complicated or long process involved in becoming trans, what gave you that idea?

I feel less safe around transwomen since I started doing more reading and having a look at TRAs time lines etc. There seems to be so much hatred of women, and strong interests in porn/fetishism etc. I would have felt reasonably safe previously, but not lately. The people I've encountered online have been agressive, misogynist bullies. I wouldn't want to share space with them under any circumstances. I would also say that I know the TRAs I've encountered are not the same as the transwomen I've encountered before, who were quietly trying to live their lives.

just to clarify - I mean you've lost me when you say that you seek to exclude post op mtf transwomen on the basis that their hole which is designed to resemble a vagina was once the skin that formed their penis.

I am fully in agreement with the stance on pre op people.

user187656748
this recent thread may be worth reading:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3364094-Debbie-Hayton-in-the-Times