Girl guiding email to parents.

Girls, it's not that I don't get it or that I don't want to get it.
It's just I don't agree with you.
Can you accept that many people don't agree with you?

1)Stop being so patronising.
2) I'm male.

@stillathing

How about ending all endemic violence regardless of who commits it?

Part of tackling a problem, understanding its causes and allocating resources involves identifying and naming the problem. The specific problem I am speaking of is violence committed by humans born male (90% of violent crimes, 98% sexual crimes - hence the use of the word endemic). Obscuring language definitions and data, whether for benign or malicious intent, will not help solve this problem.

Ostracising an entire group for the terrible acts of a tiny minority - why can't we all agree that is wrong?

Firstly when you take into account the huge range of sex based intimidation and crimes, the woeful conviction rates, the fact misogyny is not a hate crime, and the fact many, many women don't report (due to awful treatment in court, fear of not being believed / further attack and an internalised sense of shame) I am not convinced the minority of men that commit crimes against women or harass women is actually "tiny". That said most of us here continue relations with male colleagues, friends and relatives.

Secondly either you support sex segregation for some provisions and services or you don't. There is copious data to suggest it is both needed and wanted. Safeguarding works by looking at the features of the "tiny minority" and putting procedures in place to stop others with similar features doing the same. Exclusion, or "ostracising" can be a part of that.

Thirdly both view points are seeking to "ostracise" - one wants to "ostracise" trans boys from girl guides, the other trans girls.

Fourthly (is that a word?) when there is a huge systemic power imbalance, such as there is between makes and females, having a single sex environment can be good for reasons other than just safety. Think about what message girl guides are sending out by declaring themselves single gender rather than sex. The gender stereotypes for girls can be incredibly regressive and harmful. How would a girl who does not fit them feel about that, how would a gay girl feel about that or indeed a girl who is currently identifying as a trans boy or one of many other identities? It changes the ethos of guiding. Maybe that is ok, for there to be an organisation which is for the gender identity of girl. But we need to be honest about what that means.

@BaronessEllaSaturday

What did it tell you Baroness? That I think most of you have uteri? Naughty me.

I myself am the proud owner of both a uterus and a sense of humour.

why do we all have to have the same definition of ‚woman‘

Because society is grounded in the use of language (laws...) using words with agreed on meanings. To be fair, though, the ‚transwomen Are women‘ brigade does not have a different definition, but simply no definition, which makes any discussion with them akin to a conversation with the Queen of Hearts.

Girls, it's not that I don't get it or that I don't want to get it.

It's just I don't agree with you.

Can you accept that many people don't agree with you?

Women are oppressed and always have been on the basis of their biology. Nothing else.

So it does stick in the craw a bit when people come along and say, 'but biology doesn't matter, why all the need to define people by sex'? Tell that to all the millions of women who have been oppressed and continue to be on the basis of their biology. If we can't divide people up by sex class, then we can't solve the problem of sex based oppression. Which works out nicely for some people I guess.

And saying 'I don't see genitals I see people' sounds a bit like the 'i don't see colour' brigade. Lovely in an ideal world, but a convenient way of ignoring the fact that some classes of people are still oppressed.

Uterus owners, I'm going to leave you.

Amy's comment at one point, quite telling I'd say.

OK. If you’re genuinely questioning pronouns now then this thread is derailed entirely.

Force of habit Amy, due to the MN guidelines. I've become very accustomed to typing that way.

@OvaHere

Can I ask why you chose the pronoun "they"?

Genuine question.

• Reaching a bit there!!!

When babies are dumped by the wayside we don't question:

"What was their sex? And their gender?"*

Not really - you didn't seem to see the point of differentiating between sex and gender. The reality for the vast majority of females is that there is a huge difference between the biological (sex) and social (gender) category of people.

@deepwatersolo

Good luck winning people over with that attitude to debate.

I'll take my empty head away in the knowledge that you won't engage 👍

One of the things I find puzzling about these forums is why so many of you are so keen to label. Why is it important we all know the difference between sex and gender? Why do we all need to have the same definition of a woman? Many on here talk about the importance of free speech and free thought but you doggedly try to persuade anyone who will listen to share your definitions of these little words?

You know when Malala wasn't allowed to go to school, was that because of her sex or her gender identity? Could she have identified as a boy and avoided the whole getting shot in the head by the Taliban fiasco?

You know that woman who got 'made redundant' whilst she was pregnant, was that because of her sex or her gender identity? Could she have said 'wait a minute, I'm a bloke, let me keep my job' and the whole pregnancy thing would have just disappeared?

You know those girls who were groomed and raped in Rotherham, could they have told their rapists that they were in fact boys and thereby avoided being raped?

You know the women who died because they couldn't access a safe abortion, did they die due to their sex or their gender identity? Could they have 'identified out of their death'?

In the UK 2 people a week from a specific class are murdered by someone from a different class? Are we not allowed to name those classes? Are we not allowed to talk about the classes those people are from? Because they are just 'little words'?

Why do we all need to have the same definition of a woman?

Because laws, services, health treatments, statistics and all sorts of other things rely on it.

It’s not about ‘looking up someone’s skirt’ and as you are not stupid I’m sure you understand that.

Solutions can and do need to be found, but a solution which doesn't diminish rights of other people.

Amy doesn't want to get it. They can't even define what a woman is.

The solution the GG's have is taking rights away from another group!

They refusde to discuss alternatives or even clarify their safeguarding policy.
That's it.

Do you "get" it yet?

Gals, I admire you for your patience but: do you really, honestly believe it makes any sense to discuss with someone who insists transwomen are women, but can‘t define ‚woman‘?

Have those people sort out their definitions, before that they are simply not qualified for joining the conversation.

I mean, would I start a conversation about alcohols and aldehydes with someone who doesn‘t know what either is? It clearly makes no sense.

• Solutions can be found without either one of us being put in the gender bin or the other turning into a sex offender.

Sigh. But GG WONT find a solution that ensures the biological girls are comfortable. That's what we're pissed off with. They won't even discuss it.

Try brain bleach

@titchy

Reaching a bit there!!!

When babies are dumped by the wayside we don't question:

"What was their sex? And their gender?"

🙄

I was accused earlier of oversimplifying but you are drawing very arbitrary lines which make your arguments sound rather silly.

Solutions can be found

EXACTLY this is not what's happening with the girl guides though!

Do you understand this?

@CaptainKirkssparetupee

We both would be able to. Solutions can be found without either one of us being put in the gender bin or the other turning into a sex offender.

Now to try to get the image of my half-naked father in law out of my head....

No, and he'd feel just as uncomfortable as me!

And next week once he's come out as a transwoman? Suddenly you're supposed to be happy and comfortable. Except, you wouldn't be would you...

Why is it important we all know the difference between sex and gender?

Gosh that's difficult to answer.... ffs. Have the stats on DV, rape, etc totally passed you by? Which babies are dumped on rubbish heaps in rural China. Female ones or those who identify as such. FGM - female victims or Male who identify as female.

Uterus owners, I'm going to leave you.

Tried my best to answer as many questions as possible. Outnumbered here so not always easy to keep up.