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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Girlguiding Issue coming up Good Morning Britain

411 replies

WarmWishes · 25/09/2018 07:28

About to be discussed 7.40am. Suzzanah Reeves & Piers Morgan

OP posts:
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LangCleg · 25/09/2018 18:27

Yeah, fuck off Amanda and Ruth.

I would not allow my child anywhere near your organisation which has more safeguarding failures than I could shake a stick at.

I would not volunteer for your organisation - I would have to go against the most obvious of safeguarding frameworks and I would be concerned about personal liability, since it is clear you do not have anyone's back but your own.

seafret · 25/09/2018 18:27

FFS

Well there you have it. Midway down - they are "a young people's organisation". Not a girl's organisation. They should name change to Young People Guides then. grr.

And "Simply being transgender does not make someone more of a safeguarding risk than any other person".

WRONG. 'transgender' does not only mean being gender dysphoric - cross dressing is included as being trans and is a paraphilia linked with a higher incidence of other paraphilias and mental/ behaviourl disorders. see FPFW facts linked to earlier.

WRONG - in a sex offender (caught or undetected) identity issues indicate a higher risk - see Prof Coid's letter (a professor of Forensic Psychiatry)

ZuttZeVootEeVro · 25/09/2018 18:26

It is important to us that we listen to girls and young women, 86% of whom have told us, through the Girls’ Attitudes Survey, that they do not think people should be discriminated against because they are transgender.

That's not the same as girls being happy about male transperson (child or adult) being present when they are undressing or sleeping.

Also, I noticed by the end of the statement they stopped talking about girls and moved on to talk about children and young people.

AbsintheFriends · 25/09/2018 18:25

we are a young people’s organisation. Our focus has been, and will remain, providing our young members with opportunities to learn, grow and discover in a fun, safe, inclusive and legally compliant way

Looks like they've already erased the girls from girlguiding.

AdventuringThroughLife · 25/09/2018 18:24

Ive just had that email and replied to it though I think it just gets written off if it doesn't conform to their idea of truth.

Its absolutely barking :( Boys in a girls sleepover/organisation isnt a safeguarding risk?? And I dont think they should discriminate against transgender people who are female sex but helping them explore their identity. But letting boys in!?!?!
Its obviously from the starting position that male bodied children can and should live as girls...

hasopinionswilltravel · 25/09/2018 18:24

Simply being transgender does not make someone more of a safeguarding risk than any other person.

Being in possession of a penis means a person needs to be treated differently in terms of safeguarding form those without penises.

Guides understand that as far as boys and men go. There is no assurance here that they understand that for transwomen and transgirls.

IAmLurkacus · 25/09/2018 18:23

Did Susie Green write that? Fuck Off girl guides. The fact they’ve written ‘young people’ when they should’ve written girls tells me all I need to know about them. They really can fuck off.

OvaHere · 25/09/2018 18:22

I'm sorry but that says fuck all. Especially about safeguarding.

As for asking girls about inclusivity of course they will say yes but how many actually understand the tension between safeguarding and trans ideology? How many of those girls truly understand what is being asked of them in reality?

Boo hoo they were criticised and it hurt their feelings. Good.

sayhelloandwavegoodbye · 25/09/2018 18:16

GG have just emailed me this:

A message to all our members, parents and carers

Our response to the media attention to our Equality and Diversity policy

In the last few days you may have seen that Girlguiding’s Equality and Diversity policy has been criticised in the media, with accusations that our inclusion of trans members puts girls at risk. It does not.

The safety, wellbeing and happiness of our members is at the heart of everything we do in Girlguiding and has been for over 100 years.

We are therefore writing to all our members and parents of our young members to set the record straight. Keeping girls, young women and our adult volunteers safe is our number one priority. We’re really proud of our robust safeguarding procedures which apply to everyone and underpin everything volunteers and girls do in guiding. We are deeply saddened that anyone would suggest that we would knowingly put our young members at risk.

As an organisation we pride ourselves on caring for every individual. Simply being transgender does not make someone more of a safeguarding risk than any other person.

Every individual and group is different, so we train and support our volunteers to assess every situation - balancing the needs of all our members, both girls and adults, so everyone can enjoy their guiding experience in a way they feel comfortable with. Our universal policies ensure that all volunteers are required to safeguard and assess risk for all activities on a case by case basis to comply with those policies and procedures.

We’ve been responding directly to practical questions from volunteers and parents about how we can balance the needs of all our members, and we are always happy to offer bespoke support to any leader or parent, including on transgender inclusion.

It is important to us that we listen to girls and young women, 86% of whom have told us, through the Girls’ Attitudes Survey, that they do not think people should be discriminated against because they are transgender.

Girlguiding’s policies, procedures and Volunteer Code of Conduct ensure that all our volunteers understand their roles and responsibilities to treat others with respect, keep everyone safe, and deliver great experiences for girls and young women.

We therefore take breaches of our policies, procedures and Volunteer Code of Conduct very seriously.

Following a number of complaints about two individuals, an independent investigation concluded that both had breached our Volunteer Code of Conduct and our Social Media policy because they did not, and indicated that they were not willing to, follow Girlguiding’s Equality and Diversity policy and actively encouraged others to do the same. We are always willing to listen to feedback about our policies, and remain open to reviewing them wherever necessary.

We will always investigate any breaches of our Volunteer Code of Conduct and related policies. While withdrawal of membership is a last resort for us, our policies are designed to protect our girls and young women. Refusing to comply with our policies is unacceptable. Unfortunately, the circumstances meant that we had no choice but to withdraw these individuals’ membership. This decision was not based on their personal views, but on the way they conducted themselves.

We have been asked to provide further details on these specific disciplinary cases but it would be inappropriate to comment further as the individuals in question have a right to appeal.

We’ve tried to avoid being drawn into the highly politicised, emotive and often aggressive debate around transgender inclusion. Girlguiding is not a transgender campaign group, we are a young people’s organisation. Our focus has been, and will remain, providing our young members with opportunities to learn, grow and discover in a fun, safe, inclusive and legally compliant way.

We have developed our policy in line with legal advice and, in the case of our guidance around transgender members, organisations with experience of supporting transgender children and young people. Contrary to claims made on social media we do not make policy based on comments from individuals or pressure groups.

We know that this is a new and complex area of law and we will continue to review our policies against the latest advice and guidance. Under the General Data Protection Regulation 2018 the sharing of personal data of children is afforded greater protection, so we take great care to uphold confidentiality. Any information about an individual’s transgender history is treated in line with the Data Protection Act 2018/General Data Protection Regulation 2018 (GDPR) and Girlguiding’s Data Protection policy.

It hasn’t been easy to hear criticism of our organisation and of the wider Girlguiding family especially when much of it is inaccurate, aggressive and counter to the values we hold dear.

We are incredibly proud of our volunteers and the young people in our movement who sensitively and positively support diversity of all kinds, including our transgender members, as part of their groups. We would like to thank each and every one of our 109,000 volunteers who, week in and week out, offer a safe space for girls and young women to have fun, learn new skills, explore their own identity and beliefs, and to be proud of who they are.

Amidst all the noise we try to remain focused on the children and young people that we support. We call ourselves a movement because we change with the times, whilst staying focused on our core values and purpose, and we will continue to do just that.

Amanda Medler

Chief Guide

Ruth Marvel

Acting Chief Executive

seafret · 25/09/2018 18:13

I have been one to say how we must protect young boys from harm and consider how the abusive past of some males affects/results in their own offending or abusive behaviour, but that has NOTHING to do with letting boys and men into the GG.

Surely those confused boys would be much better served in the mixed Scouts where they can see both sexes interacting together, and hopefully find good roles models of both sexes, and where the presence of women and girls actually makes the Scouts a safer place for boys because of the increased safeguarding that needs to take place, and the presence and scrutiny of women to help enforce it.

The reverse is true when men infiltrate women's spaces and organisations - it hurts women and girls.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 25/09/2018 17:33

No children are never inherently abusive we make them like that they are often victims of neglect and trauma or exposed to a society where sexualisation is becoming the norm I you wish to address abusive young poeple then I would start there.

Would you? Most professionals in the field would start from the point of view that robust, flawless safeguarding procedure and strong boundaries are the first step to protecting children, and the more vulnerable the child the stronger those boundaries and safeguarding procedures need to be. Those children need to feel safe and be kept safe if they're going to recover.

Ambitions to fix society are lovely, bring on the ideas and campaigns, but until no children are abused, traumatised or sexualised how about we carry on with strong, uncompromised safeguarding and prioritise immediate safety instead of idealism?

LizzieSiddal · 25/09/2018 17:09

the news that the EHRC have informed GG that they need to make it clear they are now mixed sex is huge news

I did a little happy dance when I read that info!

deepwatersolo · 25/09/2018 17:01

No children are never inherently abusive we make them like that they are often victims of neglect and trauma or exposed to a society where sexualisation is becoming the norm I you wish to address abusive young poeple then I would start there.

And when all is said and done, adult paedosadists like Challenor will have been identified as the true, ultimate victims and winners of the Oppression Olympics...

NothingOnTellyAgain · 25/09/2018 16:08

"VickyEadie no children are never inherently abusive we make them like that they are often victims of neglect and trauma or exposed to a society where sexualisation is becoming the norm I you wish to address abusive young poeple then I would start there."

Yes I didn't get that really. All sounds nice and kind and lovely

But from the point of view of women and girls who are victims of sexual violence

It's a big "so what"?

This idea that we are supposed to be sympathetic to men and boys who commit sex crimes as they may have had difficult childhoods?

I mean yes look into it as a preventative measure for the future and stopping abuse is good

BUT the placement of it on a thread about potential / actual victims is crass.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 25/09/2018 16:05

Yep but anyway.

If a person reveals publically that he gets his kicks by pretending to be a baby and putting a nappy on then

A He deserves to have the piss ripped out of him by all and sundry
B Shouldn't be surprised when people say that person is a creepy perve and take whatever related action they see fit in terms of having them babysit etc

LangCleg · 25/09/2018 16:01

I'm "Don't startle the horses" but I am rethinking this because of the link between an increased number of paraphilias and repeated offending.

Yep. That study linked to says that only 10% of sex offenders have just one paraphilia. The majority have three or more...

... which puts David Challenor's crossdressing, adult baby, furry business right into context, doesn't it?

Fallingirl · 25/09/2018 16:01

This is from earlier in the thread:
VickyEadie no children are never inherently abusive we make them like that they are often victims of neglect and trauma or exposed to a society where sexualisation is becoming the norm I you wish to address abusive young poeple then I would start there.

I think an important point here, is that one of the ways society enables male-bodied people to become abusive towards female-bodied people, is precisely by teaching the latter group that they are obliged to overcome their own boundaries.

When we teach children of both sexes, that girl’s having boundaries is morally wrong, we socialise male-bodied people to behave with entitlement towards women and girls, and we are enforcing the belief that women and girls are beholden to males.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 25/09/2018 15:59

If the GG are now trying to deny the involvement of trans advisory figures who have had dodgy stuff come to light, (one of whom seems happily waving the association in people's faces, which must be making the GG want to hide under the table) then they're sunk. They're done.

They've admitted, people with these backgrounds advising on child safeguarding is shocking and indefensible. The agenda is sunk.

Anyone heard the thunder from Westminster yet as MPs start dashing to safer ground?

arranfan · 25/09/2018 15:57

Not kink shaming is so last year. I am bang into it now.

I'm "Don't startle the horses" but I am rethinking this because of the link between an increased number of paraphilias and repeated offending.

Academic studies also suggest a higher than average prevalence of activities such as cross-dressing amongst sex offenders. There is not much research on the subject but one study that evaluated the incidence in the general population found that nearly 3% of males reported sexual arousal from cross-dressing. The incidence of transvestism in sexual offenders, however, has been found to be very much higher. In a study of over 500 sex offenders, it was observed that over half exhibited transsexualism and/or cross-dressing as their primary paraphilia. Paraphilias are atypical sexual interests in objects, situations, or individuals. Repeat offending is more likely among sex offenders who have paraphilias (see study here). Among serious sadistic offenders, transvestism and fetishism are strongly represented (studies here and here) Quoted from 3 b ii) fairplayforwomen.com/3781-2/

Alicethroughtheblackmirror · 25/09/2018 15:54

Yup, Lang, support from a Challenor is exactly (not) what the Guides need right now.

Dracula in charge of a blood bank...

OlennasWimple · 25/09/2018 15:53

The good thing is that when yer man on the Clapham omnibus hears about this stuff in simple terms ("the GG allows teenaged boys to share sleeping accomodation with teenaged girls and their parents are not made aware that this is happening"), they don't like it and will object. When it's all obscured by flowery nonsense language about transgirls (who many would assume to be girls who identify as boys) and gender non-binary, yer man tends to switch off and not really hear what is happening (which is, of course, part of the point of TRAs using word salad)

I've persuaded my friend to contact the GG to ask them what is happening, as surely it can't be the case that boys and girls are sharing facilities? She will send me their response (in 5 working days, they say) and has agreed I can post it here.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 25/09/2018 15:52

Option 1:
Try to get avenues for the DCs of the world into GG
Option 2:
If that fails, pull the whole thing down (as TRA are MRA as well... If they won't share with us, they can't have it either)

LangCleg · 25/09/2018 15:49

AC is fucking trolling with that tweet

Quite possibly. Also doing our work for us. Look at the people associating themselves with you, Girl Guides. Look at them. If you think parents won't remove their children in droves, you're in fantasy land.

WarmWishes · 25/09/2018 15:49

Everyone keep pushing. This is crumbling just like the Greens crumbled

This entirely!!

OP posts:
dolorsit · 25/09/2018 15:49

Yeah, with my PR head on I am shaking my head.

I'm also thinking that providing we don't become a society where girl/boy/male/female have no meaning, this will be a case study on how NOT to handle things.

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