Girlguiding Issue coming up Good Morning Britain

they do not think people should be discriminated against because they are transgender.

Who does? Safeguarding is not discriminatory. The right of girls to spaces free of boys is not discriminatory - you took that one to court yourselves! The right of females to not have to change, shower, toilet or sleep in the sight of males is not discriminatory. Females having boundaries and saying no is not discriminatory.

What exactly are you calling discriminatory in this? People not willing to overlook safeguarding in some loopy attempt to be 'kind'?

we listen to girls and young women, 86% of whom have told us, through the Girls’ Attitudes Survey, that they do not think people should be discriminated against because they are transgender.

If you'd asked them another highly leading question like do you feel comfortable getting undressed and taking a shower in front of a boy you probably would have got a high response too, and it wouldn't have been 'yes'. Any idiot can ask weighted, leading questions and get the replies they want.

Contrary to claims made on social media we do not make policy based on comments from individuals or pressure groups.

And contrary to popular opinion, I fly a vacuum cleaner and not a broomstick. I can be see airborne over Wigham as I type.

Asking children what they think / want is all well and good.

Exactly. I asked my kid what he wanted for tea and the answer was ‘chocolate.’ Kids should have an age appropriate voice, of course they should, but our role as adults is to see, understand and mitigate risks that they don’t even perceive.

My point being that being trans doesn’t make people more of a risk?

It’s the fact that they are male that creates the risk.

1. If that person is a fifteen year old boy they pose risks that a fifteen year old girl wouldn’t. Two fifteen year old girls can’t get each other pregnant.

1. It’s a much wider problem than just that one 15 year old boy. Firstly all girl atmospheres benefit girls. Secondly Male (not talking about trans, I’m talking men) predators will exploit these loopholes. Men with predatory behaviours spend years getting into positions of trust - just look at that awful case in the USA with the gymnastics team doctor. So by accepting males they will remove the all female composition which in and of itself was a factor in safety. Thirdly, many Muslim and other religion holding girls will now be unable to join.

Guides needs to be single sex. I imagine that you’re a decent person, who wouldn’t want to upset an individual boy who felt they were female and I understand that. It’s sort of the default when you’re decent to expect that others are too. But this is an issue where safeguarding will be eroded if the single sex status is lost.

sossidge what would be the point of a case by case basis? All transgirls under 18 will have male genitals.

The universal safeguarding rule is that males and females over 10 do not share facilities or sleeping arrangements.

And no, being trans doesn’t automatically make you more of a risk. But we have sex segregation for a reason (quite a few in fact). GG is doing the equivalent of sticking its fingers in its ears because it clearly got swept up in the ‘lets be inclusive’ circus without actually referring back to the reasons that underpin safeguarding practices and asking the simple question of whether they still apply.

Forgive me - this is a genuine question as this is new territory for me. I’ve appreciated the feminism page and feel I’m learning from your views - especially around self ID. However, I feel uncomfortable about excluding children/young people from a brilliant and worthwhile organisation. Re: the GG email: Aren’t they saying that they look at individuals. So if a trans girl joined a troupe and there was an overnight then it (sleeping arrangements, showers etc) would be assessed and considered on a case by case basis. My point being that being trans doesn’t make people more of a risk?

If you're new to this, why not try reading the posts instead of asking why things are being said that aren't being said?

It might help.

Sossidge, the next time you go swimming would you be content sharing the changing room with a naked male bodied person? (All three pools I use have communal female changing rooms.) Would your 14 year old self feel the same way?

And if so, are you certain that all 14 year old girls, including those from religious minorities, will be equally at ease.

Trans isn’t more of a risk than what? A girl?

Two vulvas can’t make a pregnancy.

Penises are a risk.

sossidge it only gets assessed from the perspective of the trans girl. Those born female are not to be consulted, and are not to be permitted to say ‘no, we don’t want someone with a penis in our tent/showers/etc’

Yes. Did the survey ask guides what they want to happen to trans boys, and the girls replied that they wanted to exclude them....I doubt it.

Forgive me - this is a genuine question as this is new territory for me. I’ve appreciated the feminism page and feel I’m learning from your views - especially around self ID. However, I feel uncomfortable about excluding children/young people from a brilliant and worthwhile organisation. Re: the GG email: Aren’t they saying that they look at individuals. So if a trans girl joined a troupe and there was an overnight then it (sleeping arrangements, showers etc) would be assessed and considered on a case by case basis. My point being that being trans doesn’t make people more of a risk?

Asking children what they think / want is all well and good.

But are GG implying underage children can consent to having safeguarding removed?

Because they can’t, surely? Children can’t consent. Surely that’s, like, a fundamental tenant of safeguarding and why it’s needed in the first place. That children are at risk not just because they are physically vulnerable but because they are emotionally vulnerable and can be groomed, etc.

It is very very easy to ask a child - even a ‘clued up teen’ - a question in a way that gets you the answer you want. We know this, right, GG? You understand your members are inherently vulnerable because of their age? Please tell me you know this?!

Actually, transboys are the great forgotten category in all this.

We know there's been an explosion in the number of referrals to the Tavistock - what is it, 2000% + increase?

We know parents are reporting rapid-onset gender dysphoria, where girls with no previous indications of confusion about their gender suddenly decide they're boys.

These are the children we desperately need to get off social media, away from Tumblr, and into the real world, doing social activities with a broad cross-section of their peers, not a small, carefully selected subset on the internet.

Yet these are the children GG are forcing to leave.

If they've bought in to the mantra that transwomen/girls are women/girls, then the whole thing is meaningless.

but sossidgeroll, GG understand that children over the age of 10 shouldn't share mixed sex sleeping accommodation

but if one of those children says 'i'm a girl inside', despite the fact that they're still a boy on the outside (due to being a mammal - can't change sex), suddenly they don't understand that

so no, I don't trust them

their understanding is faulty

1. They are discriminating against transboys. Who are trans and female sex. They seem to have overlooked that
2. They need to be clearer. People who are not familair with the lingo will not know what this is all about. Some parents only allow their daughters to go because it is single sex. They MUST be clear that it is a mixed sex org so that children and parents can make informed decisions
3. Which I suspect is coming soon in one format or another as they say they are now a group for "young people" not girls

How do current leadership have the right to change it to mixed sex without consulting anyone apart from one set of groups who have a single agenda?

The consequences of the GG policy are not risk-free, SossidgeRoll. Where are the risk assessments?

I appreciated the email from GG. I felt it was well set out and clear. They are right about asking the members, they’ll be the people attending. It’s good to be reminded that being transgender does not make someone more of a risk. After all ... we are talking about children so it’s hard to justify a position that excludes anyone.

Sorry but this is bullshit as is that email. Safeguarding best practice requires separate sleeping and bathing for the opposite sex. This is universal.

Just because they use the term transgirl doesn't change the fact these are biologically male children.

As for asking the under age girls their opinions very few, if any of them will understand what is being asked of them let alone what is safeguarding best practice in their best interests.

Parents need to be informed if their daughter is going to be put in mixed sex accommodation so they choose whether to consent. I can guarantee most will not.

I guess my view - non theoretical view - is that in a practical level I trust the GGuides with safeguarding. Otherwise I wouldn’t send my DD. That hasn’t changed. I trust they’ll do the right safeguarding around teenage trans members. If you trust them surely you still trust them to keep your DD safe, if you don’t trust them then it’s game over.

Hi Susie, what safeguarding training do you have? Do you not have any concerns about an organisation not being open and honest with parents about their policies?

I appreciated the email from GG. I felt it was well set out and clear. They are right about asking the members, they’ll be the people attending. It’s good to be reminded that being transgender does not make someone more of a risk. After all ... we are talking about children so it’s hard to justify a position that excludes anyone.

Theirs was word salad obfuscating the issues.

The point has completely sailed over your head.

It is important to us that we listen to girls and young women, 86% of whom have told us, through the Girls’ Attitudes Survey, that they do not think people should be discriminated against because they are transgender.
Yes, but did you ask them if they wanted boys to join their unit? Did they want boys sleeping in their tents and using their changing rooms?

It's not just children though, it's teens.

My DS had a female schoolfriend for a sleepover recently. He's still quite obviously a kid, she's starting to go through puberty - so I asked him, her, and her mum if everyone was happy for them to be in the same room.

A couple of years from now I won't even be asking, they'll be in separate rooms. Because you don't put young teens in the same room, for the sake of their privacy, and dignity, and because you don't want any teen pregnancies on your watch.

"We asked the girls of the organization, 'Do you want to be kind to everyone and include them?' because we knew that their socialization would lead them to give a positive answer. This has given us carte blanche to completely ignore safeguarding risks because a majority of the girls told us they didn't mind if we did."

Exactly this.

"Oh, we're the girl guides, on a mission to empower girls by enforcing their female socialisation at every possible opportunity."

What a steaming pile of wank.

I appreciated the email from GG. I felt it was well set out and clear. They are right about asking the members, they’ll be the people attending. It’s good to be reminded that being transgender does not make someone more of a risk. After all ... we are talking about children so it’s hard to justify a position that excludes anyone.