Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Girlguiding Issue coming up Good Morning Britain

411 replies

WarmWishes · 25/09/2018 07:28

About to be discussed 7.40am. Suzzanah Reeves & Piers Morgan

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
Annandale · 26/09/2018 21:12

My ds's girlfriend has trouble saying yes or no to any offer, drops her voice to a whisper when expressing an opinion, struggles to use the toilet with other people in the house, is hugely emotionally supportive to ds who has had a terrible year and refers to herself as 'thick and ugly' Sad Completely inexperienced with teenage girls - i was useless at being one and most of my friends read the Beano into late adolescence. She'd actually benefit hugely from Guides but of course she would welcome and be kind to anyone she was asked to, without even considering whether she was losing anything.

Would be nice to see some men stepping up to create GNC Scouts troops for boys who don't present as boys. Though that does sound more like the woodcraft folk. I was in Folk for a bit and im gutted but not surprised to read their trans policy which starts 'Everyone has a gender identity...'

TerfedOff · 26/09/2018 19:51

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

gendercritter · 26/09/2018 17:03

Asking children what they think / want is all well and good.

I was thinking about this. For a variety of reasons, at the age of 15/16 I'd have said I was more than happy to let a trans girl into guides, had I been a member. I wouldn't have even stopped to consider what impact that had on me. I was extremely keen to always put other people above myself and I was very anxious about being seen to be kind.

That came from a place of fear. It has taken me nearly 20 years to learn that it is absolutely ok to say 'no.' Sometimes I still wobble although I'm working on that. You only have to look at the Relationships board on here to see just how big a problem it is for many even grown women to assert themselves.

Teenagers don't necessarily get things right. They can still be hugely vulnerable and need protecting. We have to be strong on their behalf and keep saying 'no this isn't ok. This is a safeguarding risk. Some girls won't be comfortable at having males in this space.'

Knicknackpaddyflak · 26/09/2018 16:53

I’m not after sympathy. I just want to illustrate to the “but they’re just kids, what’s the problem, brigade”

Exactly. It isn't a case by case thing. And people forget, we may not be talking about your daughter showering with the sweet transgirl that's been her friend in class and coming to her birthday parties since they were three; at a GG meet we may be talking about a teenaged male your daughter has never met before, knows nothing about and has no reason to trust because girls learn very early in life to be wary.

DickTERFin · 26/09/2018 16:45

Thanks Knicknack, same to you, that sounds harrowing.

What happened to me was not “that bad” compared to the horror that other women and girls suffer - I’m not after sympathy. I just want to illustrate to the “but they’re just kids, what’s the problem, brigade”, that there is a problem, child on child sexual assaults do happen and not as one off, occasional scenarios.

“Trans” children are no more likely to commit these types of assaults than any other child but they are no less likely either. “Transgirls” are male bodied and have no place in female only environments.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 26/09/2018 15:25

DickTERFIN I'm sorry that happened to you. My first experience of sexual assault was being captured by a group of boys aged 10-11 when I was around seven, and being forcibly undressed to get to the bit of my anatomy they wanted access to. They were not remotely interested in my sense of gender or authentic self or what I identified as; my feelings or personhood was of no relevance whatever. I was in possession of female biology in a public place and they felt entitled to it.

Plus ca change.

ShotsFired · 26/09/2018 15:11

I finally watched the GMB segment just now.

Susie Green really has had some media training hasn't she! She's acting in an incredibly aggressive way, trying to talk over all the presenters to get her scripted soundbites over. It might work with some, but not Piers Morgan.

Yes, the fact of the matter is, the fact is, she sounded very much like Anna Rampton in W1A:

Batteriesallgone · 26/09/2018 14:50

Yes it’s the win-win for abusers nature of it that has me really upset too.

DD is growing up with two brothers so a majority male household. I really wanted her to have access to a single sex group like Brownies / Guides.

DickTERFin · 26/09/2018 14:44

During my Primary School years I was sexually assaulted three times by three unrelated males. Only ONE of those males was an adult.

The first time I was about 5/6 and a boy of about 12/13 tried to coerce me into having sex with him and there was some inappropriate touching. It wasn’t too bad, mostly confusing but it happened due to a safeguarding failure (not at school - I can’t go into details because it’s very outing and a bit of a convoluted story which is not relevant to my point). This boy was known to be sexual abusive and whilst the safeguarding failure was in someways a genuine mistake, never the less I was put at risk because adults under estimated the lengths he would go to.

Assault number two was at school. A boy grabbed my genitals whilst on the monkey bars and I fell off, smacking my head badly. This boy did this to a number of other girls but nothing was done about him until he seriously sexually assaulted another girl in the toilets.

The last time was on a train whilst on a school trip. We, the “good girls” were put in another carriage on our own because we could be trusted to behave, whilst all the teachers sat together in the adjacent carriage (this was in the 80’s btw). Two men came and blocked us in. They were creepy and were asking all sorts of weird questions. I was on the aisle seat and one of them was sat on my arm-rest, he was commenting on my dungarees and playing with the clasps bit stroking my chest area (I didn’t have any breast at that time), he then “played with the buttons that went down and tried to place his hand in my crotch area. My friend opposite was also groped by the other man - we were frozen in fear and trapped. An adult noticed and alerted our teacher and all hell broke loose but we shouldn’t have been in that position in the first place.

Female children are at risk from MALES. Males of all ages and in both public and private settings.

Safeguarding is not an “optional extra”. Things have moved on for the better since I was at school but it’s still not good enough. There are still girls being assaulted in spaces where they should be safe. We can not let this roll back of safeguarding policy go on.

I am one person and it happened to me THREE TIMES. Maybe I just got unlucky but I guarantee there will be other girls who have “my luck” and it is not ok, not when we know the measures that can protect young girls.

No excuses. This is appalling and my daughter will never set foot in GG if they stand by this policy.

Unfortunately I fear this is a win, win situation for the TRA’s though. If parents copituplate and allow easier access to girls - win. But if we keep our daughters away, female’s lives shrink and they get to revel in the “if we can’t have it, no one can”, abusive shitshow - win.

This has me raging, I can’t even tell you. Fuckers.

iMum · 26/09/2018 08:17

Thank you x

iMum · 26/09/2018 08:02

It seem that there is some difficulty with accepting that trans girls are girls-in their head and heart. In their body they are still boys.
That's not being unkind or transphobic that's being totally factual.

While we segregated based on bodies we should still do so right?

Can someone very articulate explain how the trans debate being piggybacked onto the gay rights debate is disingenuous-I know it is-I want to be able to get that across when asked.

OvaHere · 25/09/2018 22:36

Well they'll be excluding all the Muslim and Jewish girls and the girls who identify as something other than girls.

They will all have to be managed out so as not to upset the males.

ThePonderer · 25/09/2018 22:33

After all ... we are talking about children so it’s hard to justify a position that excludes anyone

But that's the founding principle of the Girl Guides, to exclude males and promote the interests of girls. Clue is in the name.

Charliethefeminist · 25/09/2018 21:31

PSA?

heresyandwitchcraft · 25/09/2018 21:16

What you need to ask is this:

As a parent, would you be happy for your girl to share her intimate spaces with boys or adult men without you knowing, and in an atmosphere where she would be shamed as a bigot for speaking out if she felt uncomfortable getting naked around a member of the opposite sex?

If the answer is NO, then ask yourself why you think the magic fairy dust called "trans" makes a difference to the actual scenario? The bodies involved are exactly the same. It's a mixed-sex versus single-sex question, and it's about respecting the dignity, safety, boundaries and comfort of girls.

Additionally, the only evidence we have is that even fully transitioned trans women still retain the male pattern of criminality. In other words, the data suggest they need to be risk assessed as a male.

Self-ID means exactly what it says on the tin - ANYONE, for any reason, at any time, can make the declaration and there is really no way for you to prove or disprove what they say.

We have also seen warnings from experts that falsely claiming to be transgender (enabled by Self-ID) is a terrible loophole for dangerous criminals to exploit, because it means they have easier access to the vulnerable population they wish to harm.

British Psychological Society evidence to the government:

Conversely, psychologists working with forensic patients are aware of a number of cases where men convicted of sex crimes have falsely claimed to be transgender females for a number of reasons:

· As a means of demonstrating reduced risk and so gaining parole;

· As a means of explaining their sex offending aside from sexual gratification (e.g. wanting to ‘examine’ young females);

· Or as a means of separating their sex offending self (male) from their future self (female).

· In rare cases it has been thought that the person is seeking better access to females and young children through presenting in an apparently female way.

Such strategies in no way affect risk and indeed may increase it.

Some people falsely believe that taking oestrogen and blocking androgen in males will reduce risk of offending, however this is not necessarily the case.

Consequently the Society recommends that the Government give appropriate assistance to transgender people within the criminal justice system; while being extremely cautious of setting law and policy such that some of the most dangerous people in society have greater latitude to offend.

An actual paedophile has transitioned to become a "woman." This is a real life case that's already happened. How do we stop these criminals from exploiting self-ID? www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/3006679/paedophile-jailed-transgender-christyl-knight-christopher-nobile/

So no. This is not a simple question. Of course trans people should be safe from harm and free to participate in public life without harassment or discrimination. Nobody thinks trans people are all criminals or rapists, although I personally really do worry that self-ID allows dangerous men to claim to be trans in order to hurt people which will actually harm the reputation of trans people in the long run if we cannot stop the psychopaths from doing this.

What feminists are saying is that every single trans girl/woman is a MALE, and MALES as a group committed 99% of all rapes and assaults by penetration in 2017. This is why we have single-sex spaces. Not because we think all males are evil, but this is the best system to keep females safe. And, frankly, most males want their own single-sex spaces also.

The word "trans" does not mean we throw basic principles out the window, and give any old male who says they are a woman free access to spaces where children and women are vulnerable. "Trans" does not mean we deny all basic truths like biology exists and it matters.

"Trans" does not mean that humans can change sex.

"Trans" is not a magic spell that changes reality, unfortunately. And the "trans" person is not the only important stakeholder here. We have to be able to look at this objectively and practically.

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 25/09/2018 21:14

Haha I will do timelady, at least i'll be able to give a simple explanation, unlike the email.

I bet it will read a bit like 'the lady protests too much' to people who are new to it all.

IceRebel · 25/09/2018 21:11

Haha I will do @timelady, at least i'll be able to give a simple explanation, unlike the email.

TimeLady · 25/09/2018 21:08

I can't wait for the parents in my group to ask me what the random email was all about, as I know the vast majority have (until this evening) no idea about the situation.

The silver lining Grin Do let us know their reaction when you explain.

TimeLady · 25/09/2018 21:07

Isn't that called 'pulling up the ladder behind you'?

Exactly. And it tells you all you need to know about Stephen Whittle.

IceRebel · 25/09/2018 20:50

there may well be many new visitors to these pages, having just received a rather oblique email from GGUK.

I can't wait for the parents in my group to ask me what the random email was all about, as I know the vast majority have (until this evening) no idea about the situation.

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 25/09/2018 20:46

Stephen Whittle (on MN) said how much they appreciated the value of Guides when they were a young woman with gender issues. Denying it to similar young women now seems strange..

Isn't that called 'pulling up the ladder behind you'?

TimeLady · 25/09/2018 20:08

Stephen Whittle (on MN) said how much they appreciated the value of Guides when they were a young woman with gender issues. Denying it to similar young women now seems strange..

titchy · 25/09/2018 20:03

Whilst I am not the thread police, can I please make posters aware that there may well be many new visitors to these pages, having just received a rather oblique email from GGUK. Maybe just for the next day or so we can give new posters the benefit of the doubt and explain gently, rather than accuse of plopping.

Maybe someone can post a link to thread that explains?

titchy · 25/09/2018 19:58

So if a trans girl joined a troupe and there was an overnight then it (sleeping arrangements, showers etc) would be assessed and considered on a case by case basis.

The guidance is ONLY from the point of view of how comfortable the trans member feels. It refers to asking whether they'd prefer to share a tent, or sleep in a tent by themselves for example. At no point are the biological girls, or their parents, asked their opinion or for their permission.

While no-one is claiming that trans-girls are sexual predators, many many girls just don't want to get their clothes off in front of someone with a male body - sometimes for religious reasons, sometimes because they've been the victim of abuse, and often just because they feel uncomfortable.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.

Swipe left for the next trending thread