Girlguiding Issue coming up Good Morning Britain

I think any woman who says that she hasn't raised her daughter to be a bigot in regards to undressing in front of male bodied people regardless of how they identify should really think this through the next time they are using a changing room and think about how they would feel if a man walked in whilst they were undressed. Would they cover up? Would they call staff for help to say a man is in there, or would they assume that although he looks like a man, he really might feel like a women on the inside.

This whole thing is so muddled now (in the minds of TRAs and many of the public that is) - so that many conversations go like this:

"It isn't safe to have boys in with girls"
"But these "boys" are not boys. They ARE girls."

"They have male bodies."
"That doesn't mean they're boys! How bigoted ARE you? You need to educate yourself!"
"But people with male bodies, however they identify, can get girls pregnant."
"You really are a bigot aren't you. Now you're acting like trans people are all rapists!"
"But my daughter doesn't want to get undressed in front of male-bodied people.."

[see how quickly you have to stop using the word 'boys', for clarity, and to pre-empt the 'but they ARE girls' chant. Language is being successfully redefined...]

"Well, she'll have to get over herself and her bigoted views."
"Look, it's not personal - she wouldn't want to get undressed in front of her dad, her uncle, Prince William.."
"There will be LESBIAN girls in the Guides you know, watching your daughter undress! Do you want them thrown out too?"
"Of course not - they're girls, female.."
"It's INCREDIBLY bigoted to say 'girls are females...' You know what you remind me of? one of those bigots from the old days who used to object to gay people. This is exactly the same!"

The same old arguments come up every time (see the @ GMB twitter thread this morning for example!) and the TRAs seem to think they've triumphantly scored with points such as these... and in a way they have - they obfuscate what is really, really simple - that humans come (largely) in one of two sexual types, and we segregate for privacy and dignity on the grounds of SEX. I should imagine this is confusing to a lot of the public who keep hearing they are BIGOTS if they so much as ask a question around the ideology.

Need more sleep I am. talking about children who abuse children not adults, adults do indeed have a number of factors infulanceing there behaviours.

Bespin, read my post. I mentioned two conviced child sex offenders, one a teenager. I cannot go into more detail. However after attending a lot of sports events and meeting people with similar safeguarding responsibilities in other clubs, I am certain that robust policies and constant vigilence is required. I have no doubt that someone working in a school, and say, hiring peripatetic sports coaches and music teachers, would say similar.

And I have no idea why GGs would think that Pips Bunce would be a better consultee on safeguarding policies (for that is what they are) than someone undertaking a similar role in the GG.

Chattylion
Yes, pisstaking boys will try to self identify into girls tents. And that is just one group, there are many more groups who are a threat to girls. Why on earth does any of the current rules need to be changed anyway? The current system isn't perfect but it isn't broke

Kate Hoey and Frank Field are two of the Labour politicians I most admire, so I don't think it's right to assume her input will be negative.

The fact that male humans carry out the vast majority of sexual assaults is just, like, an individual perspective, you know? Why can't we talk about how girls do it too and also some girls have cocks and if everyone would just take their brains out and drop them in the recycling bin we could really make some progress on this whole inclusiveness thing.

A lot of it for me is the ignoring of the feelings of girls and their privacy and dignity. I know that as a 13 year old I would have been uncomfortable with a male bodied person in my tent at guide camp. I know this for a fact because of other experiences I had at that age (not bad experiences, I just know how I felt about boys at that time).

These parents who say 'well my daughter wouldn't be uncomfortable with it because I have raised her not to be a bigot' need to take a long hard look at themselves and think about what they are teaching their daughters about their own boundaries. If you are not comfortable, you are not comfortable, and if your parents have made you feel like a 'bigot' for having those feelings then they are the ones who are failing.

I worry that girls are being stopped from mentioning and discussing the completely obvious. The boys identifying as transgirls and any transwomen leaders will of course be obvious as being male to the girls. Yet everyone will be pretending they are female. No discussion. No conversations about ways good and bad we might behave towards a male who is presenting as female? Where our boundaries lie? How to have boundaries without bigotry? Boys can wear skirts, etc. How the girls feel? Questions they might want to ask the transperson and which of those are appropriate / inappropriate? It is such a bad message to send to young girls that if a male says he wants, he needs, he feels then she isn't even allowed to acknowledge what's happening never mind object or question.

We are not just talk about children, though. The policy allows male transpeople of any age access to girls spaces without parental or the girls consent.

Ereshkigal all your arguments are simply based on your perspective and none on any of the evidence or experiances of those who know exactly what the risks are. its a fixed view You see, the whole essence of risk assessment is that we assess for the worst case actually happening. We don't say 'We can put boys who say they're girls in with girls to sleep, shower, etc because Bespin and Susie Green reckon there's no chance of them ever abusing that..'

And when I say young girls I am not talking about the bepenised vvariety(or boys) that bespin is so bothered about. They have issues, that needs sorting BUT GG is NOT the place to be doing it and neither is my dd the one to be supporting this deceit. When my DD goes to GG, she does so for her own good, to be herself away from the pesky, pestering boys.

Furthermore, Bespin, EHRC state:

Operating trans inclusive policies is permissible, provided that this is consistent with the rights of others and justifiable. The risk of sex discrimination against other members can be a relevant consideration in this context.

Where organisations decide to adopt trans inclusive policies and practices, the needs of all members or service users have to be considered in any particular case.

So each time a transgirl is to be included, this must be assessed against the rights and needs of the girls, and the risk of sex discrimination must be considered.

This is because transgirls are male and EHRC recognises there is a conflict of rights.

I really do want it to be the best for all girls and an inclusive society that protect all young people is what will do that risk is managed on an individual basis and in young people is very complex

Don't be disingenuous and use all girls to obfuscate that you're not talking about girls as in human females. That's manipulative, bespin, and highly inappropriate in a debate about safeguarding, one important plank of which is to protect minors from manipulative adults.

Very bad form from you.

As an aside, I really hate the term 'trans girls'. I think it's because I searched the hashtag on twitter off the back of a thread on here and amongst other things came across videos blokes sticking actual coke cans up their bums. On Twitter! I needed a lot of brain bleach afterwards.

I know trans teenagers aren't necessarily going to be doing that, but there is obviously such a sexual element to the term, that I just can't get my head around using it in the context of the Girl Guides.

Need more sleep I am. talking about children who abuse children not adults, adults do indeed have a number of factors infulanceing there behaviours.

IT is interesting that GG are not out there defending their position but leaving it up to trans activists who, with the best will in the world, do not have GirlGuiding at the heart of their motivations at all.

GG seems to have past their safeguilding responsibilities to any TRA who are motivated to speak up.

It's about having a single sex organisation and making it unisex by stealth. It's about ignoring all safeguarding rules because someone who shouldn't be there, is there.

It's about ignoring the dignity, privacy , feelings of young girls (like you are doing here bespin - but to their faces), it's about being deceitful, lying and disingenuous bastards. It's about conflating sex and gender and ignoring the sexed body and saying it has no affect on anything. Yeah, right

Bespin, no, no, no. Pedophiles and rapists, unfortunately, come from all walks of life and backgrounds. Yes some may have been abused themselves, but how would anyone know this. And there may be cultural contexts: early access to porn, boarding school, attitudes to women, but again how would anyone know this. All a small local group, like girl guides, can do is make sure their safeguarding procedures are sound. FWIW two groups DC were involved in (one a babysitting circle and one a sports group - one before and one after our time) had members convicted of serious sex offenses involving children: one father, one teenager. The two groups survived and there was no suggestion that any child within either, was harmed. But that is because both groups had practices that safeguarded children, the sports group having carefully followed Sport England advice and having achieve SE Clubmark status. I also heard a scary story from a leader of a Woodcraft Folk group, who applied for a DBS check for someone who was already a long time volunteer with a local Church's youth group. She got a phone call the next day from the police warning her that this person should be nowhere near children. Dangerous people are out there. Dangerous people will gravitate towards children. That is why robust safeguarding policies are encouraged. And why it is so hard to understand the Girl Guides. The best excuse I can think of is that the people running and advising the organisation, is that they have not been involved in the grass roots so dont understand the day to day issues, that local people working with safeguarding will come across.

Bespin says, all girls have a right to privacy and dignity and you don't see trans girls as girls others do and therefore they are all entitled to this. any girl that did not respect that would be a issue
We see transgirls as ADOLESCENT BOYS.
Of course feminine adolescent boys should be treated with respect and dignity.
A scientific fact for you, they are still ADOLESCENT BOYS.

It's interesting isn't it trans 'girls' are girls narrative and they don't like their bodies so are unlikely to be engaging in any sexualized behaviour

1. it completely disregards that the rest of society doesn't view someone with a male body as female, and thus that actual girls may feel embarrassed, shamed, abused , if they are forced to undress, share a tent / dorm with someone they perceive as male
2. that a significant number of prominent trans women have fathered numerous children before they decided to allow their female persona become public

Ok. Transwomen Caitlin and everyone's favorite Women's officer - both lesbians
Nah I wouldn't feel safe sharing a tent with either of them

It's also about parental consent Bespin.
"Hello Parent, is it alright if your daughter shares a tent with a boy?"
The parent is of course free to answer as they see fit-but they have the absolute right to have the question asked.

I absolutely can't bear Kate Hoey, I don't think she will do any favours in this debate in terms of winning over the majority.
She's one of Nigel Farage's cheerleaders and in my opinion is a disgrace as a Labour MP. I don't think she has either intelligence or integrity.

I'm so fucking over girls and women being used to treat someone else's dysphoria or indulge someone else's exploration of their "gender identity". We should not have to be collateral damage..

This!

(My paragraphs are working again!)

And what if it isn’t a violent attack Bespin? What if a trans girl’s penis gets my 11yo DD pregnant because they are “lesbians” and letting nature take its course? What if the children believe they are having consensual sex on their guides trip?

I would decide to send my DD somewhere like GG precisely so this doesn’t happen. How would you explain to a parent, who hasn’t been told that male children are sharing a room or tent with their daughters, that their child is pregnant?

What about my friend who sends looked after children who have suffered childhood trauma at the hands of men, to GG as a way to boost their confidence? How do they deal with being in sleeping and washing quarters with a male child?