fascinating article about Rachel Dolezal & the white woman who identifies as black

Rebecca,

'Drinking coffee and tea is OK but jerk chicken is sacred.'

I remember years ago, watching a docco about Lawrence of Arabia and the talking head said, 'the funny thing is, you never see anyone going native the other way do you?'

I nearly combusted. Apart from every single time anyone wears a T shirt and jeans. And television. And all the invidious strands of Western colonial culture (peace be upon them) which have entangled almost everyone in the world. Grrr.

Agree, cultural appropriation likes keeping people in their strictly segregated boxes as well although I suspect most fans of the term would say they approve of multicultural societies, but only as long as people stick to their box's hair styles and clothes. I think we're allowed to share music, and some food. Drinking coffee and tea is OK but jerk chicken is sacred.

2rebecca

"Expand the interests and dress codes/ mannerisms of the group you are in rather than trying to be something you're not"

These days even that is not an acceptable activity according to our woke overlords. Like that poor lassie shamed all over America (but not Asia) for daring to wear a cheongsam to a prom.

Manderley

Still, at least he's consistent. Not sure I'd ever want him representing me in a professional capacity though: I think "words" and "definitions" are pretty key when you're a lawyer.

Yup, Manderley, I agree. At least it is consistent, albeit offensive and ludicrous. But the hypocrisy of all the woke TRA-supporters needs to be exposed. If you think people can change from man to woman and that a man in fact IS a woman if he identifies as one, then you must also agree that white people can identify as black and draw benefits from schemes designed for diversity.

Peakpants. It certainly emphasizes the cray cray of it. It's the more honest and consistent position though. I'm sure his teli friends will put him right but they won't be able to explain why one is bad and one is good. He'll have to suppress his realization that it's illogical.

When the tra's were trying not to mention Karen white, an American trans woman was on twitter saying 'we have to stand up for rapists rights to self identify. First they came for the rapists ... I'll die on rapist hill' quite extreme. But to be fair to her it is consistent and the logical conclusion to the ideology. As with the barrister. I completely disagree with their assumptions about the nature of identity. They are wrong. But at least they follow through. I have a strange respect for that. I can't be doing with the cherry picking.

How about if I start telling black people that they have 'cis privilege'? I wonder how that would go down. If I told someone who had been a victim of racism and oppression all her life that she should just button it because it's sooo much harder for me when people question whether my flaxen hair and milk-coloured skin are in fact black. How would that go down? I mean, personally, I think she would be justified in stabbing me...

You are right of course, Eva.

And race CAN be a continuum in a way that sex cannot. So you can have one black grandparent and 3 white grandparents, and possibly you would "present as" or "be" black. Or you can have one black grandparent, one Asian grandparent, one white grandparent... etc etc - race can potentially (depending on your genes) be an area where you might have some choice over which heritage you describe yourself as. Whereas sex really is just one or the other (apart from a tiny percentage of intersex).

Manderley yes, I saw that. What an idiot. But it's good that this stupidity is being exposed. I would love for a blue eyed blond man to run for president of the black lawyer's society and for this barrister-dude to defend that said Aryan must be black if he says so and that it's totally in society's interests to allow this and that 'cis-black' (?) people should STFU about potential erasure. If stuff like that happens, maybe people will wake up, but who knows?

Hormone wash theory? Not true. TRA push it a lot though.

abnormal hormone levels do have an effect in the foetus but that effect not changing their sex. It can be things like an increased predisposition to PCOS for example, but it doesn’t change thebsecbof the foetus.

This is such a disturbing case. She’s obviously had a really awful childhood and I feel extremely sorry for her for that. Her appropriation of ‘blackness’ has so many parallels to trans though and it’s fascinaying to listen to people try to explain why one is to be celebrated and one to be slammed.

I know you don't agree, Deathgrip, I was just deconstructing that argument.
So hypocritical of the TRAs to criticise Dolezal when doing exactly the same thing themselves.

A bloke argues on twitter that anyone who identifies as black is black. It's mentioned on dr jane clare jones twitter (which is an excellent twitter feed well worth checking out.)

Anyway - he's a barrister, and he works for UK TELI.

As someone points out he's trying to apply logic. He knows trans racial and trans gender are logically consistent, he just hasn't had the memo that you are supposed to pretend that they are not.

twitter.com/janeclarejones/status/1044333394841210880

2rebecca I do think the oppression angle is relevant though. It explains why this is something that is a risk and danger to women. It's not simply that it's impossible to change race and sex- it is that it is actually deeply insulting to oppressed groups to have their oppressors identifying as them and taking away the hard fought for rights that they do have. If people can self-ID into getting woman of the year awards and standing on AWS and competing in female sports events, that pushes women even further backwards. Same as it would if white people put on some dark foundation, claimed to be black and took up posts and opportunities reserved for black candidates and claimed that it was diversity.

I wasn’t saying I agree. I was saying it’s the only thing approaching an argument I’ve seen.

There are trans-abled people and those who support trans rights are nowhere near as scathing of them as they are of Dolezal from what I’ve seen.

To me trans-racialism is much more... plausible (not the right word)... understandable? as the biological differences between “races” is very minor whereas the biological differences between males and females is huge.

I think the privilege/ oppression argument is a bit irrelevant. Your skin colour is what it is and your sex is what it is regardless of how much oppression a particular group has had.
Liking the stereotypes of a different sex or racial group doesn't make you a member of that group and stereotyping groups is offensive.
Expand the interests and dress codes/ mannerisms of the group you are in rather than trying to be something you're not.

I think it's the best, most persuasive analogy there is.

The fact that it started with an abusive upbringing and identity problems

That it continued with her finding kinship

Then it concluded with her offensively taking things she had no right to.

I feel sorry for her too and I feel sorry for anyone who has been abused. I even feel sorry for AC. But to act out your psychopathology in ways that harm others - that is never OK.

I do not feel sorry for the Men's rights activists and fetishists

The only even vaguely relevant argument I’ve seen is that race is entirely genetic while sex is governed by both genes and hormone reception in the womb.

I don't see the difference here to be honest. I am not a biologist, but sex is a material reality. Unless someone has an intersex condition (which is very rare), their biological sex will be entirely unambiguous. My understanding was that sex was determined by the male sperm- not that hormone levels in the womb influence what sex a baby is born. Either way, the point is that male-bodied people have oppressed female-bodied people in the same way that white people have oppressed black people. For either of the oppressor classes to declare that they feel part of the oppressed group is absolutely ludicrous.

How would people with disabilities feel if I, as an able-bodied person, self-identified as disabled and demanded a blue badge and full access to benefits and schemes designed to assist those with disabilities? Would that be cool?

And, of course, biologically, the difference between races is nowhere near as distinct as that between the sexes.

'If we examine it properly, there is no difference between trans-racialism and trans-genderism. None. Race is a material reality, as is biological sex'

Yes, you're right Peak. And 'grotesque' is exactly the right word. It is grotesque that a biological male puts on wigs, heels, dresses and mascara and claims to be a woman. Do the heels and the dresses if you choose to - go for it - but none of it makes you a woman if your biology is male

The only even vaguely relevant argument I’ve seen is that race is entirely genetic while sex is governed by both genes and hormone reception in the womb. That suggests though that all trans people are either intersex or have hormone-related GD which we know is not the case.

If we examine it properly, there is no difference between trans-racialism and trans-genderism. None. Race is a material reality, as is biological sex. Black people have been oppressed due to their skin colour, not because of their culture or the clothes they wear or whatever. Women have been oppressed due to our biological sex, not our gender identity. The thought that a white person should be permitted to call themselves black is grotesque to the majority of black people. It's laughable- they are part of the oppressor class and have had the benefit of being white throughout their life. But when the same happens with men and women, we bend over backwards to try to deny that biology is a real thing.

I feel sorry for RD and I feel sorry for people with gender dysphoria. I hope more trans-racial people come out of the woodwork in order to expose the trans-movement for exactly what it is.

I have never heard a single convincing argument as to why trans-racialism is different to trans-genderism. Because there is none- they are the same thing and they are highly problematic for the same reason.

Another recommendation for the Rachel Divide. It's really fascinating. She's a very sad and strange person. I felt really sorry for her, especially when she berates herself for being unable to 'get over' her parents' horrendous treatment of her and her siblings. There's no doubt she has suffered terribly and is deeply traumatised

That said, her assertion that she is black is highly offensive. She was challenged passionately by black women at a Q&A session in the documentary but she seemed to have no empathy with their position. The last 5-10 minutes of the documentary are really disturbing. And yes, there are trans parallels all the way through

Oh my god so glad someone else has brought this up - I watched the documentary an thought they last bit where she fills in the form to register the birth (and race) of the child was particularly weird.

You can't claim to be black any more than you can claim to be a woman (when you're not) but identifying as one and living your life as one is another thing - but is it? Really fascinating debate about how you grow up and what you experience growing up.