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Call for gender critical people in Cambridge, UK

281 replies

maniacmagpie · 24/09/2018 12:21

DISCLAIMER: am not a mum and am relatively young. Have lurked intermittently here and in other feminism spaces, largely interacting with other young people (student age). Due to my age, my main exposure to these issues is from the point of view of someone moving in young liberal spaces, and my call is phrased accordingly, rather than among adult women who have a more tangible experience of systematic sexism in society, medicine and life. PLEASE let me know if this not the appropriate place for this request, and I will step back.

This is a message that I have started to spread: I have not generally been a social person and so am finding it relatively difficult to get started on contacting people. If I can get in contact with other people who share my concerns in person that would be great: if not, I will do what I can.

"Hello.

I am a student at Cambridge University. I have been left-leaning my whole adult life. I have been supportive of trans rights for years. I have always believed, and continue to firmly believe, that discrimination on the basis of being trans is unacceptable; trans people should have access to the care that they need, and do not deserve to be treated as lesser people on the basis of who they are.

Despite this, I have become increasingly alarmed by the discourse surrounding trans activism. For many years I crushed my own thoughts about misogyny, my doubts about my own understanding of sexism, with the thoughts that I must not ‘get’ it as a ‘cis’ female. I believed - or rather, forced myself to believe, when I couldn’t truly believe - that trans people, and specifically trans women, completely understand what it means to be the gender they identify with.

I no longer believe this. Please, before you dismiss me as a bigot, hear me out.

I no longer believe womanhood is a mystical force that can be detached at will from the reality of the female body, I do not believe that femininity is the target of misogyny, because non-conforming women suffer still from misogyny. I do not believe that even trans men are able to escape all misogyny and their own socialisation by transitioning - they are still able to be, and indeed have been, targeted by sexual violence in a way that only male-bodied people can visit on female-bodied people - reproductive violence, that can result in pregnancy, and the associated policing of bodily autonomy that comes with that. I believe that trans women are the targets of misogyny when it is assumed they are female bodied, and homophobia and fear when they are assumed to be male. I do not believe that it is reasonable, or appropriate, to demand that natal women stop talking about reproductive violence due to this misdirected misogyny. I do not believe that this statement is transphobic.

I believe that transphobia - job discrimination, verbal abuse and violence - is unacceptable. However, I strongly disagree that certain actions that are labelled as transphobic among progressives, are transphobic at all. I believe, not only that homosexual men and women have every right to reject opposite-sexed people as sexual and romantic partners, but also that the demands circulated among many progressive forums are damaging to young people’s understanding of their sexuality. Specifically, the toxic combination of female socialisation, lack of resources for isolated girls, and pornsick fetishisation of lesbianism for the consumption of men makes lesbian youth vulnerable to manipulation and gaslighting from mainstream LGBT+ groups, illustrated by the horrific discourse about the ‘cotton ceiling’. Not wanting to sleep with someone is not violence. Inclusivity is not something that is expressed through access to your body. I do not believe that in normal conversation it is at all reasonable to demand that any person, trans or otherwise, talk about their genitals - but sexual relationships are another matter. Sexual relationships should only be engaged with by two willing and enthusiastic participants. Human sexuality is, and should be, exclusive and not a target for guilt-tripping.

I believe that specific difficulties are presented to trans people that they should have the resources to deal with and spaces to talk about. However, I also believe that specific difficulties are presented to female people on the basis of their bodies - and that discussion of these issues is not transphobia. Naming reproductive violence for what it is, campaigning for better understanding of female medical issues in the face of the huge male bias of modern medicine, and recognition of the economic and social penalties endured by female people specifically on the basis of being physically female and not due to an inner identity, is not transphobia.

Gender hurts. Gender is a system designed to trap and control female people from birth through childhood, adolescence, adulthood and old age, because of their reproductive capabilities. This system did not fall from the heavens; it was created by males, to benefit males. Women have always, and continue to, suffer under this system - our economic power restricted, our lives at the mercy of men, our bodies policed, our voices ignored - because we are female, because we are chattel, because of those who believe we are lesser. Gender is the reinforcement of sex stereotypes, that women have fought against and will continue to fight against, as long as it exists.

Many males suffer under this system - gender non-conforming males are at inordinate risk of violence, generally from other males - due to stepping out of line. Boys who show emotion are punished for it. Gender hurts - gender is not a fun hat to take on and off, gender kills boys and men for behaving the wrong way, and girls and women for both resisting and capitulating. Gender is not a fun toy to play with and to swap around. Gender is a system designed to break us down.

‘Pussy grabs back’ - women cry - because the President of the United States said ‘grab them by the pussy’. Not ‘grab them by the feminine essence’ or ‘grab them by the girl brain’ or ‘grab them by the emotional intelligence’. Grab them by the pussy. Grab this creature who exists for his consumption and pleasure, by the only thing that gives them value in his eyes. Focusing on this does not make women genital obsessed. Pointing out that this is the root of our oppression is not transmisogyny. Recognising that we are treated this way because of our bodies is not a statement that it is the most important aspect of our selves, but a declaration that we are more than our bodies - and that we must be able to name the problem in order to combat the problem. Saying ‘this pussy grabs back’ is not transphobia. Recognising the extreme sexism of powerful men is not transphobia.

I retain a deep sympathy for those who suffer with dysphoria and deal with it in the best way they can. My stance on trans identities is roughly that of a medicalist. I believe that trans people are fully deserving of respect, the same rights as every other person, and freedom from discrimination. I believe that what is being asked, by certain noisy factions of trans rights extremists, is not a call for respect but rather a call for excessive privileges at the expense largely of natal females, and a targeted bullying of lesbian females and homosexual males. I do not believe that it is transphobic to point this out.

I do not believe in brain sex, but even if I did I think it is irrelevant - if you carved open a woman to find a clearly, obviously male brain with MAN branded in big blue letters, she would still have suffered sexism based on her body. To those who believe this to be true, that they are ‘born in the wrong body’ and the only way to alleviate this is transition, I respect your autonomy and your right to live as you feel best, but must say this: sexism visited on a man in a woman’s body is no worse than sexism visited on a woman in a woman’s body. Sexism hurts ‘cis’ women as much as it hurts female-bodied people who identify otherwise. I do not believe this is a transphobic thing to say.

I want to raise awareness and spark discussion in Cambridge, both in and outside the University. I want to discuss these issues, in light of the gender self-ID consultation, the silencing of A Women’s Place UK, the violence perpetrated upon women who speak out, and the vitriol being circulated against gender critics. I invite natal women, natal men, trans women, trans men, straight, bisexual, gay, lesbian, questioning, otherwise - anyone who wants to discuss, debate or just acknowledge this topic - to contact me. My wish is to provide a space to debate and discuss these topics outside the false dichotomy of the ‘conservative right’ and the ‘progressive left’. I want to reach out to the women suffering from misogyny, men suffering from enforcement of toxic masculinity, and trans, lesbian and gay people who are being failed by conservative families on the right and by ‘queer identity’ theorists on the left who describe their reality as transphobic, who feel silenced and unable to speak out without being branded as either morally disgusting or as bigots.

Please spread this. PM me. I want to talk. I’m reaching out. I will use the tag ‘gender hurts uk’ (on tumblr, where my blog is 'yourledgerisdripping'), or privately message those of you who reach out to me.

Gender hurts."

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Original poster
maniacmagpie · 25/10/2018 09:38

Manderleyagain One thing I wondered , when people couldn't believe that anyone would say that biological difference is hate speech and you replied yes they do and they are telling it to my face, were there actual gender ideologists there counter protesting you at that very moment?

Sometimes I wish they would more often. It would make my life easier in many ways. I do however have an email sitting in my inbox that really is full bingo (sex is a colonialist construct, TERF rhetoric is 'hate-filled, discriminatory, and entirely unfounded in material reality', Janice Raymond has caused 50,000 trans deaths, comparing my disagreeing to disagreeing with 'the right of disabled people to live' etc). Half my response ended up being (paraphrasing) 'if it's obviously the way you say it is and obviously materially not the way I think it is, you should have arse-all problem convincing people that I'm totally in the wrong and I welcome it'. Frankly I'm begging - double down on it. Be plain. I'm a lost cause. I clearly don't care about the harm I'm doing, you might as well lock me up and bin the key, but at least tell the clueless onlookers why. Tell them why 'people with vaginas' is a better term than 'female'. Tell them how I'm harming trans people with my words. Please for the love of the goddess do it.

CUSU LGBT+ has been warning about 'transphobic stickers' and of course someone commented about being careful for razor blades being hidden under them. I honestly have lost track of whether I think these people really believe what they're saying or are merely saying whatever they think will scare the others (I suppose they must believe that at least some people believe it's plausible, even if they themselves do not believe it). I wish they'd make the content known when they brand things as transphobic. Tell us what it is you're watching out for. You can avoid hurting people with judicious use of trigger and content notices, right? Godsdammit, that's why I'm doing what I'm doing, that's why people resort to stickers. You can't 'block and stay safe' a TERF with a sign (well...you can try) or not see a sticker, the way you can block every woman you disagree with on twitter.

I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir yet again.

stillathing thanks for your (and everyone else's) putting up with my mad ramblings!

ThePrincipal please rest assured that my knowing that you feel that way achieves the sharing and taking away of the hurt that you wish for.

Flowers to all for putting up with me. Sometimes I do worry I'm being self-aggrandising, but I do think that sharing/discussing has helped me to formalise my approach to people covering a fuller spectrum of beliefs than I was originally prepared for. I also like to think that getting a slice of 'real life' is good when so many of our battles are currently conducted on social media (hypocrisy alert!) although that has certainly felt less true in recent months with the consultation...although people talk about unplugging, it's definitely folly to pretend that opinions online are detached from life...

Magpie

OP posts:
Manderleyagain · 24/10/2018 15:27

"spaces to not pretend that women's feelings aren't important are part of what we are losing"

Yep.

Manderleyagain · 24/10/2018 15:25

Thanks for writing this. Have a lovely break. I'll keep an eye out for this thread again in November. Gentle presence is a good approach. I know I wouldn't have the gumption.

One thing I wondered , when people couldn't believe that anyone would say that biological difference is hate speech and you replied yes they do and they are telling it to my face, were there actual gender ideologists there counter protesting you at that very moment? How did the member of the public respond to that? This is the issue we have. Not only do people not know, once they do know it seems so unbelievable they don't actually believe it. Meanwhile policies have been changed and the law of the land might even change to reflect these points of view which most people not only disagree with but don't even believe anyone could hold.

I really support you but please make sure you are always safe. Have a great holiday.

ThePrincipal · 24/10/2018 15:04

I wish I could share or take away at least some of your pain. You stay strong too.

stillathing · 24/10/2018 14:19

Thanks for your writing Magpie. Enjoy your break.

Original poster
maniacmagpie · 23/10/2018 22:41

Hi gals,

I'm away for two Saturdays (abroad). I'm torn between ruminating and recharging - I need a little time to rest my mind but also I'm not taking my eyes off the prize. The most important thing for me is to get my emotional footing back on track. It's been rough.

I had a mosey through this thread and others about the GRA reform on this forum, because it's interesting to see how much things have changed for me in a mere month - when I started I wasn't aware of the scale of the GRA consultation, how hard people were being punished for speaking out, how widespread the inability to speak out was. I thought it was just a few people like me who had painted themselves into a corner with the super-woke bubble. Most people I know wouldn't reach instinctively for the 'preferred pronoun' without hesitation, most would say that obviously no male should be in female sports no matter how they identified. I only wanted to reach out to the few who'd trapped themselves in an echo chamber as I did, to say it was ok to question - to realise that yes, there is a conflict of rights and difficulties.

I had thought it was my fault for retreating into a bubble. I had done so because everyone around me felt my obsession with feminism was to my detriment (and also just annoying) - so I stopped reading the news completely. I deliberately didn't watch sports coverage that I thought could upset me - I refused to watch the coverage of the Commonwealth Games women's heavyweights because I thought they'd cover Laurel Hubbard, I've avoided women's and non-binary groups (to be honest, have done so for years even prior to them becoming 'women's + nonbinary' because I didn't want to 'define myself by victimhood'), I stopped going on social media, I stopped talking about anything to do with feminism or trans rights.

It didn't fix me.

The years I spent pretending that being female doesn't affect the way people treat me, frankly, broke my head. The additional years I spent trying to wrap my head around 'cis' privilege and rewire my understanding of feminism stomped the pieces into fine sand. I'm an emotional wreck when it comes to this stuff. But I thought it was on me. I figured it was my fault. Nobody told me to respond so emotionally to this stuff, nobody told me to be affected. At the same time, nobody forced me to stick my head in the sand. They might have suggested it would be better for my emotional well-being, but nobody forced me to get myself stuck.

I finally unstuck myself and thought, well. That was very silly. I wonder if anyone else is in the same boat? Maybe it would be good to reach out to them. Maybe there's one or two people I can help, the way one or two people in anonymouse online forums helped me.

The last month or so - reading the consultation, reading Stonewall, seeing what's explicitly stated by our student union, the lack of news coverage, the realisation that people are losing jobs for questioning, seeing how WPUK and FPFW are spoken of as hate groups - terrified me. I'd literally say that for the first time in my life, upon reading the GRA proposed reforms document - in it's raw form, not paraphrased - my blood ran cold. I was horrified at what had been hidden from us.

That wasn't the worse bit though. The worst bit for me? Is how so few people seem to care.

Someone further up said

"I think sometimes you can afford to speak directly and frankly without cushioning the terrible blow of stating that women have rights too"

and horribly, upsettingly, I feel like I have to disagree. Very few people I've spoken to give a crap about women's rights for women's sakes. I'm used to this from the 'normal' side of talking about bog-standard misogyny. Very few people believe the way I'm treated by men, very few people believe that a man talking over me in a certain way might be because I'm a woman - they treat every little thing that happens to me as one-offs, even when I talk about how persistent it is. Moreover, people close to me get annoyed because I'm oversaturating them - in my bid to show them how persistent it is by telling them just how much it happens, they just glaze over and switch off. They just want it to go away.

This stuff is more of the same. Why would they give a crap about what we are losing when they don't care for it anyway? I've been absolutely devastated when expecting emotional support over some of these issues. People close to me, who claim to care for me, will talk about how it's more important even if it hurts a few women to support the few males it will help - for them to have a place to belong - ignoring my real anger at being told to look up to someone like Pips Bunce as a role model, or the Wachowski's being held up as proof that women can make it in Hollywood. The reality is that the sheer pain of being female - that these people knew I suffered with for years and still do - is just an irrational response, and annoying. They didn't care about it - they didn't want to hear about it any more. It's just not real compared to the possibility that a male might have his feelings hurt by closing comment of FPFW's rebirth video about how self-ID would make it easier for an abusive male to enter female sanctuaries. They cared more about how that might make transwoman feel like they're being equated with men. Even men who like to differentiate themselves from 'straight white men' and who notice the little things, the way women are put down in certain ways by subtle use of language, the little things we do to protect ourselves - will revert back to 'not all men', call me disrespectful, dismiss my plain observations of the things that have been said to me (and then claim not to have done this) and put the blame on me for responding in anger when I point this out.

That's the reason I feel unable to talk about women's rights for the sake of women as an opener most of the time. Most men - and it must be said, a large proportion of women - just don't give a shit.

We keep fighting. I know it's probably frustrating to a lot of people on this forum that I'm one of those people essentially taking a 'handmaiden' approach - including the erasure of homosexuality, not countering their emotional appeals with emotional appeals about women and girls having feelings too, talking about how the suppression of male feelings with 'boys don't cry' hurts boys and men. I do it because (a) as a matter of fact I do care and am not concern trolling - I'm not tacking it in to make it look 'woke' the way we feel that trans-ideologists are with period poverty - and (b) most gay men don't care about women, and most straight men don't care about women, and I've expended a lot of effort already trying to convince them to do so, and right now I'll do pretty much anything - including accepting the hurt to myself that comes with pretending that none of my feelings matter - if it will help people wake up and start helping to piss on this dumpster fire.

Having said that, it heartens me hugely that I have met a few (way too few) people IRL where I can freely express our fears for female rights without needing to wrap it up in prettiness and smiles. I wish I didn't have to wrap it up like that ever again. I wish no woman or girl had to. I wish it wasn't so few, and I wish I didn't have to be so stupidly massively grateful whenever it happens, especially from a male. I'm trying not to grovel when it happens - an old, and bad, habit, it's basic decency being given but it's like a drop of water in the desert. It's so much a part of what hurts us so much. Spaces to not pretend that women's feelings aren't important are part of what we are losing - the few we ever had. I barely even have that space in my own head, and I fought damn hard for even that little bubble. I hope I'm helping one or two people by kicking for a little niche where that space can be created and maintained. I agree so deeply that us needing the space should be enough - and yet it seems we continue to need to wheedle and beg for the scraps we have. I do wonder, often, if we should all just go for the massive civil disobedience route as has been suggested by a few other posters, just close ranks completely on the issue - but I think that the whole debacle has shown to me just how much females will put themselves through to appease males, and just how little our voices mean. I'm so tired of being told to 'go through the proper channels'. I'm tired of seeing not only that we're not listened to when we do, but that we're not listened to when we point out that we're not listened to.

Two Saturdays off and then I'll be back on King's Parade on Nov 10th. It's interesting that I'm starting to get people saying 'yeah I saw you before but didn't say anything'. Low-impact gentle presence is what I'm going for and what I seem to be achieving at least with a few people. It's also good that some people on 'the other side' knew of me from the CUSU LGBT+ facebook post and have the wherewithal to come see what it's really about, and so find out that I'm really not the kind of person who wants to take a pickaxe to them, even if we disagree (often strenuously).

Luck to you all in the UK post consultation, and stay strong - Magpie

OP posts:
idontlikepinkandimstillfemale · 21/10/2018 10:10

What I wondered was basically whether there'd be anything left of us, any identity to colonise, if we all opted out of their system.
Me too. If they claim the title 'women' for themselves, this will ultimately lead to dissatisfaction, because it will change the 'in' group that they want to be a part of. Culture will respond and adjust, the stereotypes of femininity that they try to embody will come to be associated not with women, but with trans women, women themselves will come to represent something else. Their colonisation will only serve to highlight ever more vividly that trans women are not women, but with the massive amounts of delusion we have already seen and the fierceness with which they seek to enforce their supporting ideology, it is clear they will not let go, the cycle of invasion will start again.

Applesandpears23 · 21/10/2018 02:34

I just found this thread and I agree with a great deal of what you have written. I don’t live in Cambridge any more otherwise I would come and join you.

Original poster
maniacmagpie · 21/10/2018 00:52

Interesting comment about technology. I've heard some people express negative views about it in the sense that they feel that the rise of medicine and technology is fueling a culture that further detaches the mind from the body - they feel 'transhumanism' is contributing to this because people are increasingly not only able to place primacy on the mind, but make the body just a vessel to chop and change. I can't for the life of me remember where, but I definitely saw one doctor/surgeon? say something along the lines of, well if you regret your mastectomy you can just get implants. It's a bit...well. I'm not a grab bag of bits. Even all the phrasing - person with penis, person with vagina - like your body is just an item owned by the real, intangible, unchallengeable you - Descartes has a lot to answer for!

I don't refer to myself as agender - I want to stress I don't have any actual intention of using their system. What I wondered was basically whether there'd be anything left of us, any identity to colonise, if we all opted out of their system. I suppose there'd be enough 'cis' left behind still happy or ambivalent enough to use the system, and I don't think it's the answer. I suspect that's at least some of what is behind the rise of non-binary identities. When nobody can properly say what they mean by 'feeling' like a man or woman, I'm not surprised that you could easily end up at the conclusion that you are in between. I went along with my self-examination of identity for such a long time because I couldn't refuse to use the system even when it felt wrong, because of that little voice telling me to pipe down and check my 'cis' privilege...

Eep. All I can say is, I'm personally glad not to worry what I am inside any more. Blood and guts mostly.

OP posts:
idontlikepinkandimstillfemale · 21/10/2018 00:04

The same is true of the pink hat. I'm not actually escaping the system, I'm just trying to beat the ball back when what I should actually want to do is stop the game. Is that what you're saying? Maybe not stop the game, but start a new one. I still haven't figured out the solution as to how to navigate forging an identity as a woman free from the patriarchy - who has? I think new technologies are interesting though as they are unexplored territory providing new possibilities. I keep meaning to read Donna Harraway who writes on themes in this area.

It's funny, I tried out referring to myself as agender for a while, because that's how I feel, but in reality it doesn't matter, unless I decide to obviously signal to the world through the way I dress or get rid of my hair or mention being agender a lot and insisting on neutral pronouns, people will still just see me as female - and it would be paradoxical to make those changes if gender's really not important to me.

I'm heartened to hear that people were more responsive this time around, and you spoke to a wide range too it seems. You are doing such a good job, it's such a bizarre debate to be having with people, the audacity of the claims being made, the manipulative tactics, no wonder people are confused. Also, as they are such a small percentage of the population, how many people know any other trans people well? Most people probably just think the whole issue is just an extension of gay rights, to put trans people out of the misery of waiting around in the 'wrong body' for too long before they are recognised as the opposite sex so they can use their preferred toilets, and who could argue with that? I probably would have gone along with it too if I hadn't heard these dissenting voices helping me to articulate what I really felt after I read some of the extremely violent TRA voices of entitlement which sounded neither feminine nor in solidarity with women. That's when the dissonance really kicked in and hasn't stopped growing since. I've been struggling with the woke crowd for a while, mixing in creative circles it's a bit of an echo chamber like that. Anyway, starting to make less and less sense so I will bid you goodnight. Thank-you for what you are doing, it does matter, and it sounds like you are making some headway. Just being visible is so important x

AnchorMum · 20/10/2018 22:42

I was thinking of you today - and so glad to hear that you had some positive conversations and interactions.

I have so much admiration and respect for you - you think deeply and with heart, and put yourself at personal risk by going out there and connecting to strangers. On your own!

I just want to say thank you ThanksThanks

Original poster
maniacmagpie · 20/10/2018 20:55

idontlikepinkandimstillfemale I still think creatively, it comes from a place of defining ourselves by being against something rather than using our voice to state what we actually are, so in that sense I worry it will always fail as a statement of power.

Great point. I suppose I also take the view that no man is a vacuum and there is little I can do that is neither not conforming nor conforming. I've mentioned that I have 'masculine' hobbies, but even that is defining myself against femininity. I take your point about saying 'what we actually are' though, and as I said I like it as solidarity and my peaking moment.

I did have a look at that video - it's very interesting! I'm afraid I've not had a huge amount of exposure to art and so that sort of interpretation never occurred to me. Unfortunately, I see it also as a nuance that most of the people around me aren't going to pick up, and of course as you say I have my particular interpretation. You're absolutely right that it's just a tug of war over something that ultimately we didn't choose. I have to say I'm usually a reclamation skeptic. One guy commented that in some way I'm being a 'meta-contrarian' because mine is the mainstream (acknowledging biological sex is not hate speech) and theirs the contrarian, so I'm and contra-contrarian, and still participating in the rally. The same is true of the pink hat. I'm not actually escaping the system, I'm just trying to beat the ball back when what I should actually want to do is stop the game. Is that what you're saying? Please forgive my artistic ineptitude...

I think the point is excellent, I suppose I simply think that there's an extent to which I prefer to compromise to achieve certain goals. There's a lot to be said for just standing your ground and defining yourself not against something. It's certainly a capitulation to some degree.

There's layers and layers, and no version or symbol could cover or appease them all. I'm so sorry to hear about your sexual assault, and agree that it must be awful to feel like you would be defined by that. I suppose I take the view that it would also be awful to pretend that any of the effects it did have on you were somehow all on you, which is the side I'm seeing in some cases.

I have been lucky enough not to experience sexual assault, and most of the time I like to believe that being female is no more important to me than being a certain weight. But sometimes - when a man thinks it's his job to lecture me about my own field - I just can't pretend it has nothing to do with the way I'm treated, and personally it was far worse mentally to think I should just keep trying harder. But I absolutely take the point about not defining myself as a victim. Usually, when I'm not talking feminism, I try not to.

What's really sad is that it's the most disadvantaged groups of women who may not be from the most woke crowd, due to poverty for example, aren't being heard.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't have much more to say, this is so true. Do you think the women with abusive husbands and nowhere to go are really privileged for being 'seen as women'? Do you think a veiled woman who can't travel without a male chaperone can escape by identifying differently? Lord. I've been called myopic for focusing on sex. But sex is all that mattered when little girls get taken abroad and cut!

They probably don't experience the gaslighting effect of being forced into submission with a new narrative that doesn't reflect their experience of life in the same way that those who have been in abusive relationships have.

I've never been in an abusive relationship, but the whole rewriting of reality dressed up in 'acceptance' has been very psychologically hurtful to me, and evidently many others. I definitely look back and think I should have put my big girl hat on, but I didn't, because kindness. The weaponisation of kindness - that's another reason the pussy hat became important to me (I mean mostly it's just bright, sticks out, and annoys a certain sort of activist).

A four way system sounds interesting, but would we HAVE to declare our gender identity if we just want to escape it altogether?

That would be my preferred self, I think! As I said, I'm targeting a specific crowd and trying to show them it's not about identity. The only thing that makes me a woman is my body. No shit, I literally used to be hurt by the word when I still thought that I couldn't 'identify' with all those things that other women seemed to be happy with (although I never demanded anyone not use the word to describe me because that's ridiculous, who would do that...I digress) and I only began to heal when I accepted that it meant no more to me than being an adult female. YMMV. Each to their own.

What would they do if we just, en-masse, declared ourselves agender (their term for not having a gender identity)? I don't like it particularly because it's again using the master's tools, but I've made a decent amount of headway with many people by showing I don't care for identity. It does seem to be a tactic that works on a particular sort of person. Again, YMMV.

Speaking of which, today was actually quite positive. Most people did not shout at me. I got a lot of nods, and a lot of chatting with 'normal-woke' people who are starting to realise that there's a line that needs to be properly enforced. Had a long chat with a man where we both wondered if, born to different parents, we could have been pushed into transition - he had 'girly' and I had 'boyish' hobbies. I told him to look up mermaids if he was interested in some of the things being pushed. Had some interactions with amongst other people, someone who blockaded me last weekend - we had a friendly catch up. Someone else had a chat with me - I think considered themselves a transman, but I didn't quite catch it - where they said they'd seen the warnings for me on CUSU LGBT+ facebook page, but after talking to me said 'I seemed cool'. We disagreed about the scale of the problem but not necessarily whether it existed, which is fine by me. It's a start. These people know I'm human. I don't hate them, I don't want them to die, I don't want them not to exist. I'm defending a different demographic. I think it might not have occurred to them that they could be doing harm with their words in just the same way as they see that I do with mine. It genuinely breaks my heart to hurt people, and I hope that came across. I hope some of them can see that I want real, useful dialogue.

Something else very encouraging - a few worried people who have only recently heard about the consultation, and are seeing just how deep this all goes, and how absurd the modern movement is and how much the narrative has changed whilst the poster child 'suicidal transsexual born in the wrong body' picture is continuously pushed. It's spreading. Not fast enough to completely avoid this mess - but people are seeing more and more just what is being asked, so we'll at least have people onside. Also as usual quite a few vaguely incredulous people - saying, is anyone really saying that? And I'll tell them yes, they're here saying it at me, they're telling me I'm pathetic, they're telling me that male and female aren't meaningful physical categories, shouting that in my face...that really hit a few people I spoke to. Nothing I was saying was mad, but there are people out there who really think it is. I mean obviously I'm purposefully flushing those people out, and it's a minority (thankfully) but still.

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folduptheocean · 20/10/2018 20:28

Agreed OP

Ereshkigal · 20/10/2018 17:32

Goddess. It crushed me, smashed me, and I came up spitting and snarling with more rage than I think I've ever felt over any other form of misogyny I've ever experienced. It felt so much worse than blunt misogyny, when a man will tell me my brain's not made for science. It felt worse because it was wrapped up in pretty language and inclusivity and acceptance. It was a demand that we blunt our teeth and claws and decentre the very reason that we are treated like shite. I realised that they gave not one single solitary shit about us. And I realised that it truly was defanging us - that it truly was removing any ability we had to talk properly about sexism if we can't focus on the root, and I saw how destructive the whole ideology was, and I saw how much it had contributed to my total inability to comprehend the things that had happened to me.

Brava. All this. Great post 

idontlikepinkandimstillfemale · 20/10/2018 16:59

I take all your points about the pussy hat on board, it was clearly a peak trans moment for you, which makes it a valid act of defiance for you to wear it. I still think creatively, it comes from a place of defining ourselves by being against something rather than using our voice to state what we actually are, so in that sense I worry it will always fail as a statement of power. It reminds me of this little art critique of Saami flags, actually:

I was sexually assaulted once, as those women were by Trump, and I hated that suddenly in certain contexts this became my whole identity, it erased everything else that I am. The pussy hat doesn't do this as such, but I dunno, perhaps it is issues to do with not wanting to have my identity defined by what's happened to me as a sexual violence survivor. I'm an artist, or try to be, and so this is how I think about it in terms of creativity too, not reacting but finding what's within and authentic. That said, of course how can we ever not be reacting to something rather than enabling our own voice, we don't live in a vacuum. As a female artist, you are always exactly that, a female artist. If you make work about being a woman, which is valid as you are one and that is your lived experience, then you are a feminist artist and that's all people can see, their own pre-concieved ideas about what feminism is. If you don't make work with your life experience as a woman expressed, you are a second rate male artist. I'm thinking about trying to get away from this by identifying as a cyborg, I'll see how that goes.

What's really sad is that it's the most disadvantaged groups of women who may not be from the most woke crowd, due to poverty for example, aren't being heard. Those who think that sex (which they interchange with gender) is just an identity that you can try on for size then discard if you get bored like fast fashion (not the genuinely dysphoric) or think we're just being big old meanies by not just going along with whatever Emma Watson has on her T-shirt this week have probably never had to use a domestic violence shelter. They probably don't experience the gaslighting effect of being forced into submission with a new narrative that doesn't reflect their experience of life in the same way that those who have been in abusive relationships have. The more I take it apart, the more it makes me sick; not despondent though, because I know we are right, but it's yet another example of how people who rely on social media for their cues don't seem to be able to entertain two conflicting right-on causes in their head at once. I want to see what happens when Muslim women start saying they're unhappy with sharing their single sex spaces, what on Earth the virtue signallers will make of that. These are confusing times, I never thought I'd be agreeing with people whose other opinions make my eye twitch - that's being used against us too. Bizarrely, I was accused of being funded by American fundamentalist anti-abortion organisations last week on Twitter. I don't know whether he-she meant that they thought I was part of some bigger organisation, or as an individual person, with all my 250 or so followers. This is what my life has become, but I digress...

I think I mentioned somewhere - I learned so much of my GC feminism from transmen. It would almost be funny if it wasn't so sad. The ones who felt their trans-ness was a kind of extreme gender expression to alleviate their dysphoria, and would actually say things like 'I am a woman and I am a transman, because being a transman is an experience only a woman can have', really struck me.

It's interesting you've had a lot of conversations with trans men who are (not so) strangely absent from this whole debacle. What you've reported them saying clearly contradicts the whole TWAW mantra. If their view becomes more a part of the discourse, I'm sure there'll be some underlying misogynistic pseudoscience explanation from TRAs as to why trans men feel like this but it's different for trans women so we should all just suck their lady cocks and not ever mention it. A four way system sounds interesting, but would we HAVE to declare our gender identity if we just want to escape it altogether? It's not something I'd want to record at all, especially with the way our data is recorded in this AI age and the potential for how it may be used in the future. It's great that you've found this angle though and that people are listening, and it's actually exactly what we want to express, that gender isn't an issue so why not record it if you wish, just don't change recorded sex, because that's impossible to change anyway - that should be enough reason without having to defend ourselves in any other way. And you are right, they know they can never be us, but that's exactly why such forceful tactics have been used, mass brainwashing and complete compliance or else condemnation of thought crime.

Original poster
maniacmagpie · 20/10/2018 13:08

Clarification: I like to phrase who I am like this - I don't identify as a woman. Nonetheless, I exist as one. It's an important difference when talking to identity ideologists.

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Original poster
maniacmagpie · 20/10/2018 13:04

Lefthanddown
hopefully the counter protesters, will find something else more productive to do.

Interestingly one of the first people to spend time shouting at me said the same thing (that I was pathetic and wasting my time, don't I have better things to do). Apparently not. If it's anything like last time, one of my hours is five of theirs. They can come as a horde and waste their time if they want. I will happily use their time and effort, since they've used so much of mine. Also of course, never to lost sight, I have something I am fighting for.

I was faintly amused that they felt the need to send five people to deal with me. I'm one five foot female. I weigh 45 kilos and I'm wearing a pink hat and holding a sign. If they want to waste five (wo)man-hours of their time to each of my one, that's their problem.

idontlikepinkandimstillfemale some people have an adverse reaction to a pussy hat. I for one can't stand them, I'm just not a 'joiner' in that sense and like you I am allergic to pink

So I still hate pink on anything else. The pussy hat is important to me though, because to me (I'm not saying it has to for you or anyone else) it could be a reclamation of pink - it's an acknowledgement that pink was made our colour, forced upon us. It was forced on us, as part of our socialisation

For me, seeing the pussy hat on thousands of women in the pictures of the women's marches - it felt like solidarity. To me it's not a capitulation, but a sneaky distortion, when combined with 'pussy grabs back' - that hated (for me) colour as a flimsy veil over our teeth.

The pink hat healed something very broken in me. It didn't, to me, represent an extension of female socialisation, because the message is so counter. To me it was being used as a f* you, because even though pink is part of our socialisation as soft and yielding, the message isn't soft - we reject you, we reject men who think it's funny to 'grab em by the pussy', we are legion and we are women and we are more than this. I loved the layers of meaning - the fact that textile crafts have always been devalued, knitting and weaving is 'girly' and worthless, but men are lionised in fashion, for example.

At that time though, I still was relatively ambivalent. I might have considered taking one up in solidarity but I wasn't super attached to it as an idea, per se. And then. And then. They started saying that it was trans-exclusionary.

Women's marches started discouraging or even banning them. Women started saying things like "if it hurts even a few people's feelings, then I don't feel like it’s unifying".

eu.freep.com/story/news/2018/01/10/pink-pussyhats-feminists-hats-womens-march/1013630001/

(This article gives a nice 'balance' for people on the fence. It's bald about what's being said, and doesn't actually push too hard, but I think bald words work very well when the ideology is so convoluted and absurd.)

That's what cracked the scales for me. They took a symbol of solidarity and imprinted something absurd - pink wasn't chosen as a 'white feminism' symbol of genitalia, ffs. They say things like "The Pensacola Women's March team will be removing all forms of hate speech that they encounter in an effort to promote a safer environment for all women." It's hate speech. It's hate speech to say that maybe, just maybe, an assumption that we have a pussy is the reason why men feel the entitlement to grab us?

Goddess. It crushed me, smashed me, and I came up spitting and snarling with more rage than I think I've ever felt over any other form of misogyny I've ever experienced. It felt so much worse than blunt misogyny, when a man will tell me my brain's not made for science. It felt worse because it was wrapped up in pretty language and inclusivity and acceptance. It was a demand that we blunt our teeth and claws and decentre the very reason that we are treated like shite. I realised that they gave not one single solitary shit about us. And I realised that it truly was defanging us - that it truly was removing any ability we had to talk properly about sexism if we can't focus on the root, and I saw how destructive the whole ideology was, and I saw how much it had contributed to my total inability to comprehend the things that had happened to me.

In my correspondance with some of the counter-protesters, I'm receiving messages like 'I thought we were past biology as destiny', and I feel the barb still - the implication that I am trapping myself. Well lookie here. I'm GNC. Not fierce make-up and a tight fitting suit with 10inch heels liberal feminist GNC - actually, really GNC, philosophically as well as outwardly. I bought into the idea for years that I could escape being treated 'like a woman' by changing my mannerisms and thought processes and just not being sensitive, just trying harder, why don't I just show them that I'm good at what I do? Just don't listen to the haters. And still I don't get to escape men talking over me like I don't know jack about my own subject, and if someone wants to tell me one more time that I could change that by behaving just the right way, I'm going to tell them right out - that is classic victim-blaming.

They made me more attached to the pink hat than ever! I do think it has power as a symbol - I think I mentioned somewhere that a couple of american women noticed it. It crosses continents!

Whew! That was long!

The bit about femininity (saying things with a smile and with calmness) is actually kind of true. (I wish socialisation was an aspect the noisier factions would take up more often...). I've found there's actually additionally power in being GNC, because too many still feel that what we want is to 'exclude them from womanhood' as some sort of club. They would see someone with 'feminine' gender expression as excluding transwomen 'based solely on their genitals' because they'd see a 'feminine' woman and think it's about holding on to identity. I had this argument with a close friend - he asked why I 'thought I had a better claim to womanhood' - and I realised they don't understand womanhood as other than identity. I seriously threw some people when they asked how I identified and I said as nothing. I told them I don't identify as a woman, so I show them that frankly I don't care about identity. I didn't say in so many words, but I do hold GC views, woman is merely 'adult female' to me and most, but it is an overloaded term to many of the people around me so I just stick to 'female'. There's a gap in the 'woke' crowd to be attacked there - I'm trying to show that it's not about identity. I honestly couldn't give a used fig about identity because I don't need external validation over what I am. I want to bypass the argument completely. We do need the word as they're conflated too much by law and language, but I want to show them that identity isn't where I'm coming from.

I think I mentioned somewhere - I learned so much of my GC feminism from transmen. It would almost be funny if it wasn't so sad. The ones who felt their trans-ness was a kind of extreme gender expression to alleviate their dysphoria, and would actually say things like 'I am a woman and I am a transman, because being a transman is an experience only a woman can have', really struck me. I've seen more and more transsexual males say similar recently. Don't get me wrong, I think we need to enforce a hard line on single-sex spaces. There are multiple paths to that, and I believe that there are many 'normal-woke' (as opposed to 'super-woke' gender ideologists who genuinely think it's reasonable to call a penis female) people my age who would support a four-way system - sex and gender both as identifying markers. That's my experience of most of the 'normal-woke' young people (who are just trying to be kind but don't believe you can change sex completely) and that's the angle I'm working. Sex has been the break point for most of the 'normal-woke' people I've been around.

I'm being a lil sneaky, because I actually think the overreach of trying to take 'sex' as well as 'gender' is flipping more and more people over to the dark side where they go, hang on. We gave you 'woman' and you want 'female' too? It actually makes them more likely to realise how messed up the whole thing has become, more likely to realise that we aren't fighting about identity at all, and actually more likely to go full GC. That's what happened to me.

I am at peace, finally, with being female. It doesn't matter what words they take (well...it does politically and socially, but that's not what I'm trying to say here) because we will always exist. They know this is true and so do we. They know they can't have what we are, no matter what they say, and it maddens them.

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idontlikepinkandimstillfemale · 20/10/2018 10:43

*just in case it wasn't clear, the bit about 'smiling' was both taking the piss and genuine at the same time. Maybe it's good to use stereotypes of kind and caring femininity against them, maybe we'd be trapping ourselves, maybe we're fucked either way...

Degustibusnonestdisputandem1 · 20/10/2018 04:49

I'm within travelling distance but not a student (worked for the University for over ten years) has

idontlikepinkandimstillfemale · 20/10/2018 03:51

I realise now my point about the Curtis link isn't very clear, but it's very late/early here and they're all worth a watch anyway.
One more point, and I don't want t criticise anything you do as I admire it, but some people have an adverse reaction to a pussy hat. I for one can't stand them, I'm just not a 'joiner' in that sense and like you I am allergic to pink (fing sports shoes - why?! Do I need to remind everyone I've got a pussy when I'm going for a morning jog?!), but of course you can use your own judgement as to how people respond, and I do understand the logic behind using it, but if you hate it too do people always 'get' that, or do they think you're a pussy hat girl? Might be good to confuse them and appropriate trans style then hit them with your logical thinking - bam! They'd never expect that. Anyway, I feel a bit of a c giving 'notes' from the safety of my bed as you prepare to go out and take one for the team, just brainstorming. All the best & night night x

idontlikepinkandimstillfemale · 20/10/2018 03:17

Really enjoyed reading this thread, you are a very talented writer, it's like the serialisation of a novel. Unfortunately I live nowhere near Cambridge. When talking to people I think you would do well to think about how Cambridge Analytica targeted people on Facebook for campaigns. Of course we don't have access to individual data to hone in on their personal preferences, but you could try to consider a range of concerns - women's safety, how gathering of statistics for policy-making could be effected, academia, pure bleedin' logic - and target with different approaches depending on what you think is likely to concern each person most (I'm sure you probably do that intuitively already, but you sound like a very logical person, and unfortunately most people are not, they want something that affirms them and their identity, you need to give something which gives them permission to think as you do). I think sometimes you can afford to speak directly and frankly without cushioning the terrible blow of stating that women have rights too, so long as you have a smile on your face as you do it (of course, always safety is the priority). I love the #genderhurts tag, people like simplicity, and talking about 'feelings' rather than ideas. And themselves, most of all themselves, so perhaps ask 'How does gender hurt you?' People don't like to think too much, they like to belong. It has become evident most people don't give a shit about women, especially women depicted as a bunch of pearl-clutching harridans (even though so many of us seem to be gender non-conforming, not necessarily old or even mothers). It's so much sexier to be part of the woke generation - or not sexier, but more celibate if sex isn't your thing, not meaning to trigger anyone. That's what this campaign needs and what the TRA's are all about, selling sex, they're just being young and wild and free, and we're a load of old 'cis' fuddy duddies. I'm being totally serious, if there were a bunch of girls in hotpants with #genderhurts plasters over their nipples parading down the high street maybe someone would listen (not a serious suggestion, it would certainly hurt taking the plasters off - although did you hear about the woman who went to a man only swim session, declared she was a man and swam topless in trunks? That was a good stunt). Perhaps one way we can market this, our right to exist and define the terminology to define us is that we are free of labels, we don't need 'cis' or 'trans' or 'pan' or anything else, because you don't have to change sex to be whatever you want to be, labels confine us. Someone else here mentioned the Adam Curtis docs, 'All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace' I highly recommend and I think is pertinent, looking at how the rise of computers and their binary thinking, plus pseudoscience, game theory and politics all collide. vimeo.com/groups/96331/videos/80799353

I wrote on another thread about where logic fails with militant trans women:

In any case, the reason I believe that any kind of rational discussion fails with this type of trans activism, such as inclusive arguments that the goal posts should change to accept feminine men and masculine women as they are, is because that's not what they ultimately want, they want to be admired and accepted as a woman because that's where their sexual thrill lies, which might be fine if it was consensual, but instead it's being forced on us, with a desire to access all our resources, private spaces, even the language we describe ourselves with so that they can feel not just fully as women, but a kind of untouchable, uber race of women, excelling at us in sport, being named 'Woman of the Year', and taking over positions of responsibility that we've fought for to be led by biological women.

They're the ones who created these gender roles, but it has come to a stage where enough women feel free to move away from these, so they're performing them for themselves - almost to punish us, it seems, to show us how much better they can do it than we can. Perhaps that's what they really always wanted, addicted to the humiliating role-playing relationship gender roles provide, and knowing that we can't perform the subordinate role convincingly enough any more, they show us how it's really done - their trials far worse than ours, their make-up more precise, their man periods more painful, their lady cocks so much more exotic than anything we have down there, our 'fish'...

Anyway, I read your original post and was pleased - relieved even - to see student involvement: it takes guts, even though it shouldn't.

Good luck, and don't forget to smile. It will make you non-threatening and confuse them at the same time. Set traps. Remember that their arguments are threadbare, but you won't win on arguments, it's all about how you make them feel.

Lefthanddown · 20/10/2018 00:30

Best of luck for tomorrow Magpie, hopefully the counter protesters, will find something else more productive to do.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 19/10/2018 22:30

Flowers magpie

You are doing a courageous thing. If anyone threatens you, please report them.

AnchorMum · 19/10/2018 22:30

Good luck Magpie - I really admire you for doing this. Enjoy a nice gin and tonic afterwards.

Original poster
maniacmagpie · 19/10/2018 19:56

Hi gals,

I'll be back out again tomorrow afternoon. I had opened an email dialogue with someone who counter-protested me last week but I don't think it's gone terribly well. We'll see what comes of it. I expect they'll be back again following me around, as is completely their right to do.

I expect to see escalation of emotions as the consultation closes, but we always knew this was about more than just the consultation.

Magpie

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