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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Call for gender critical people in Cambridge, UK

281 replies

maniacmagpie · 24/09/2018 12:21

DISCLAIMER: am not a mum and am relatively young. Have lurked intermittently here and in other feminism spaces, largely interacting with other young people (student age). Due to my age, my main exposure to these issues is from the point of view of someone moving in young liberal spaces, and my call is phrased accordingly, rather than among adult women who have a more tangible experience of systematic sexism in society, medicine and life. PLEASE let me know if this not the appropriate place for this request, and I will step back.

This is a message that I have started to spread: I have not generally been a social person and so am finding it relatively difficult to get started on contacting people. If I can get in contact with other people who share my concerns in person that would be great: if not, I will do what I can.

"Hello.

I am a student at Cambridge University. I have been left-leaning my whole adult life. I have been supportive of trans rights for years. I have always believed, and continue to firmly believe, that discrimination on the basis of being trans is unacceptable; trans people should have access to the care that they need, and do not deserve to be treated as lesser people on the basis of who they are.

Despite this, I have become increasingly alarmed by the discourse surrounding trans activism. For many years I crushed my own thoughts about misogyny, my doubts about my own understanding of sexism, with the thoughts that I must not ‘get’ it as a ‘cis’ female. I believed - or rather, forced myself to believe, when I couldn’t truly believe - that trans people, and specifically trans women, completely understand what it means to be the gender they identify with.

I no longer believe this. Please, before you dismiss me as a bigot, hear me out.

I no longer believe womanhood is a mystical force that can be detached at will from the reality of the female body, I do not believe that femininity is the target of misogyny, because non-conforming women suffer still from misogyny. I do not believe that even trans men are able to escape all misogyny and their own socialisation by transitioning - they are still able to be, and indeed have been, targeted by sexual violence in a way that only male-bodied people can visit on female-bodied people - reproductive violence, that can result in pregnancy, and the associated policing of bodily autonomy that comes with that. I believe that trans women are the targets of misogyny when it is assumed they are female bodied, and homophobia and fear when they are assumed to be male. I do not believe that it is reasonable, or appropriate, to demand that natal women stop talking about reproductive violence due to this misdirected misogyny. I do not believe that this statement is transphobic.

I believe that transphobia - job discrimination, verbal abuse and violence - is unacceptable. However, I strongly disagree that certain actions that are labelled as transphobic among progressives, are transphobic at all. I believe, not only that homosexual men and women have every right to reject opposite-sexed people as sexual and romantic partners, but also that the demands circulated among many progressive forums are damaging to young people’s understanding of their sexuality. Specifically, the toxic combination of female socialisation, lack of resources for isolated girls, and pornsick fetishisation of lesbianism for the consumption of men makes lesbian youth vulnerable to manipulation and gaslighting from mainstream LGBT+ groups, illustrated by the horrific discourse about the ‘cotton ceiling’. Not wanting to sleep with someone is not violence. Inclusivity is not something that is expressed through access to your body. I do not believe that in normal conversation it is at all reasonable to demand that any person, trans or otherwise, talk about their genitals - but sexual relationships are another matter. Sexual relationships should only be engaged with by two willing and enthusiastic participants. Human sexuality is, and should be, exclusive and not a target for guilt-tripping.

I believe that specific difficulties are presented to trans people that they should have the resources to deal with and spaces to talk about. However, I also believe that specific difficulties are presented to female people on the basis of their bodies - and that discussion of these issues is not transphobia. Naming reproductive violence for what it is, campaigning for better understanding of female medical issues in the face of the huge male bias of modern medicine, and recognition of the economic and social penalties endured by female people specifically on the basis of being physically female and not due to an inner identity, is not transphobia.

Gender hurts. Gender is a system designed to trap and control female people from birth through childhood, adolescence, adulthood and old age, because of their reproductive capabilities. This system did not fall from the heavens; it was created by males, to benefit males. Women have always, and continue to, suffer under this system - our economic power restricted, our lives at the mercy of men, our bodies policed, our voices ignored - because we are female, because we are chattel, because of those who believe we are lesser. Gender is the reinforcement of sex stereotypes, that women have fought against and will continue to fight against, as long as it exists.

Many males suffer under this system - gender non-conforming males are at inordinate risk of violence, generally from other males - due to stepping out of line. Boys who show emotion are punished for it. Gender hurts - gender is not a fun hat to take on and off, gender kills boys and men for behaving the wrong way, and girls and women for both resisting and capitulating. Gender is not a fun toy to play with and to swap around. Gender is a system designed to break us down.

‘Pussy grabs back’ - women cry - because the President of the United States said ‘grab them by the pussy’. Not ‘grab them by the feminine essence’ or ‘grab them by the girl brain’ or ‘grab them by the emotional intelligence’. Grab them by the pussy. Grab this creature who exists for his consumption and pleasure, by the only thing that gives them value in his eyes. Focusing on this does not make women genital obsessed. Pointing out that this is the root of our oppression is not transmisogyny. Recognising that we are treated this way because of our bodies is not a statement that it is the most important aspect of our selves, but a declaration that we are more than our bodies - and that we must be able to name the problem in order to combat the problem. Saying ‘this pussy grabs back’ is not transphobia. Recognising the extreme sexism of powerful men is not transphobia.

I retain a deep sympathy for those who suffer with dysphoria and deal with it in the best way they can. My stance on trans identities is roughly that of a medicalist. I believe that trans people are fully deserving of respect, the same rights as every other person, and freedom from discrimination. I believe that what is being asked, by certain noisy factions of trans rights extremists, is not a call for respect but rather a call for excessive privileges at the expense largely of natal females, and a targeted bullying of lesbian females and homosexual males. I do not believe that it is transphobic to point this out.

I do not believe in brain sex, but even if I did I think it is irrelevant - if you carved open a woman to find a clearly, obviously male brain with MAN branded in big blue letters, she would still have suffered sexism based on her body. To those who believe this to be true, that they are ‘born in the wrong body’ and the only way to alleviate this is transition, I respect your autonomy and your right to live as you feel best, but must say this: sexism visited on a man in a woman’s body is no worse than sexism visited on a woman in a woman’s body. Sexism hurts ‘cis’ women as much as it hurts female-bodied people who identify otherwise. I do not believe this is a transphobic thing to say.

I want to raise awareness and spark discussion in Cambridge, both in and outside the University. I want to discuss these issues, in light of the gender self-ID consultation, the silencing of A Women’s Place UK, the violence perpetrated upon women who speak out, and the vitriol being circulated against gender critics. I invite natal women, natal men, trans women, trans men, straight, bisexual, gay, lesbian, questioning, otherwise - anyone who wants to discuss, debate or just acknowledge this topic - to contact me. My wish is to provide a space to debate and discuss these topics outside the false dichotomy of the ‘conservative right’ and the ‘progressive left’. I want to reach out to the women suffering from misogyny, men suffering from enforcement of toxic masculinity, and trans, lesbian and gay people who are being failed by conservative families on the right and by ‘queer identity’ theorists on the left who describe their reality as transphobic, who feel silenced and unable to speak out without being branded as either morally disgusting or as bigots.

Please spread this. PM me. I want to talk. I’m reaching out. I will use the tag ‘gender hurts uk’ (on tumblr, where my blog is 'yourledgerisdripping'), or privately message those of you who reach out to me.

Gender hurts."

OP posts:
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LiverpoolReSisters · 28/01/2019 00:30

Join the ReSisters United movement, op. You can DM us on Twitter at @ResistersU and we can help you (or anyone!) find other local women.

We are not alone, and we are growing. #ReSisters

maniacmagpie · 27/01/2019 23:19

Wow this blew up a lot more than I had expected. Of course I'm glad, but I didn't know if it would work!

The protest on Saturday went fairly well, except for a few logistical problems on the way down the road where the billboard, strapped to my bag, decided it would like to be a kite instead. What a way to go that would be - strapped to my horribly transphobic poster.

Anyway.

As you can maybe tell I was hopping mad when I saw the tweet. And I don't know why I suddenly decided I was going to do such a different protest. But it was within about five minutes that I planned it all out.

That said, I didn't know if I was going through with it until the last possible moment. I wasn't sure. I thought it might be too much for me. But I was so angry, and I was so tired of pretending that other people have a monopoly on outrage, and I was tired of debating dehumanising language to come to a common ground, there has to come a time when you just make a damn stand. It had been bubbling in my head all week, and finally I just knew I wouldn't forgive myself if I let it slide.

My only regret is that I didn't get rid of the white space at the top of the poster since I hacked it all together at about 4am!

A lot of people took pictures. Crowds gathered to read it. Here are a few snippets of things I overheard.

"Ooh a handmaid! Wait, what? ... ... ... She has a point actually." (a group of men)
"Why not just say women?" [indistinct explanation about inclusivity from someone else] (woman with a pram, who after a few more moments thought while her friends continued, took a picture)
"Are you protesting because you are angry our language is being stolen? A lot of us are angry too."

So many of us are out here and so many of us know what's up. We are scattered across the country and so many of us believe ourselves isolated and alone.

Thank you all for your support and your concern for my wellbeing (heartfelt, I know it can sound accidentally sarcastic online!). My wish is that what I am doing gives you hope.

As to what you can do for me: I am gathering resources, and my most recent thought is that we could do with a map for speedy reference. I am inspired by a radfem map I saw on tumblr.

maphub.net/maniacmagpie/gendercriticaluk

As you can see it is a little sparse, with just me and the Cambridge Radical Feminists here in Cambridge...I am aware of the location and meetup threads and will cross-post to them, but I would appreciate if people could help spreading this for me.

Contact via DM on mumsnet, Twitter, or post it here.

OP posts:
OvaHere · 27/01/2019 23:00

What you're doing is fantastic maniacmagpie. Like others I overlooked this thread assuming it was a meet up and I am far from Cambridge.

I'm really heartened that there are some young GC women engaged in activism. Flowers

Dragon3 · 27/01/2019 22:30

I skimmed earlier and mis-maniaced you elsewhere on the boards by calling you manicmagpie (sorry).

Is there anything that women far away from Cambridge can do to support you?

Please don't forget to take care of yourself first and foremost. We are many. If you ever need to regroup remember that the baton can be passed backwards and forwards Flowers

groundcontroltomontydon · 27/01/2019 20:58

Wow, I'm in awe of your tenacity and courage, Magpie. What you're doing is so important. You're amazing.

nauticant · 27/01/2019 20:35

Like others, I hadn't opened this thread before because I live far from Cambridge. However, having seen the other thread about your current protest I gave this one a look.

It's a terrific thread and an excellent read. You have real courage maniacmagpie. Not the flash storming-machine-guns-type but the stoic determined type. This is inspirational.

RedemptiveCrocodile · 27/01/2019 20:20

Solidarity, sister. You are amazing!

TransposersArePosers · 27/01/2019 17:40

maniacmagpie I'm another one who skipped past your thread in the list as I am nowhere near Cambridge. Thanks to OrchidInTheSun for the thread about your silent protest which has brought me over here.

What you are doing is awesome, you are far, far braver than me!

Melroses · 27/01/2019 17:28

Not near Cambridge, but saw you on Twitter. Yeah Grin

Bowlofbabelfish · 27/01/2019 17:02

I’m nowhere near Cambridge so I’d skipped this thread. I just want to express my admiration for you - you’re very brave.

Itssadsometimes · 27/01/2019 12:58

I was just teaching my son about Mary Wollstonecraft OP. For his GCSE.
Her spirit lives on in you

WorkingItOutAsIGo · 27/01/2019 12:57

Congratulations on yesterday’s protest. How did it go?

Itssadsometimes · 27/01/2019 12:57

Bumping to express admiration.

papayasareyum · 26/01/2019 19:13

I wanted to come over today, but couldn't. When will you next be there?

Lefthanddown · 26/01/2019 17:57

Well done @maniacmagpie photos look great, but what did your sign on the floor say?

Are you happy for a photo from today to be posted here?

maniacmagpie · 26/01/2019 10:43

@Gonzales27 I'm not planning on taking the show on the road but I have previously travelled to London for Let A Woman Speak and am actively interested in networking with gender critical groups.

Reminder to anyone coming out today that I will not be able to talk to anyone between 2pm and 4pm but welcome pictures, and am happy to discuss afterwards.

OP posts:
Gonzales27 · 25/01/2019 11:40

Well done @maniacmagpie , I've just read your OP and it is fantastic. Beautifully written.

I presume your protest is just local to Cambridge? Is there any inkling that this could be national?

maniacmagpie · 25/01/2019 11:22

Hi all,

I have had an epiphany, courtesy of Women's March London.

I believe the proper thing to do now is to show as many people as I can their words, so that we know better than to call menstruators by such an excluding, nasty, divisive term as 'women'.

To show that I know my place I will be wearing the red robe and white bonnet of the handmaid.

To show doubly that I have learned my lesson about speaking out, as does not befit my station, I will have my mouth taped shut.

  • - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
  • - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The protest will run from 2pm to 4pm tomorrow (Saturday). As it will be a silent protest, if you want to talk to me please wait until 4pm. You can DM me so that I'm expecting you, and of course if you do so within half an hour of me finishing I will probably still be loitering in the town centre. I will be glad to go and find a hot drink somewhere if you want a longer chat.

I welcome as many pictures as possible as it will be a very visual protest.

Magpie

Call for gender critical people in Cambridge, UK
OP posts:
SisterWendyBuckett · 23/01/2019 10:56

Wow Magpie - that 'Can sexual preference = transphobia answer...

I'm lost for words - again.

maniacmagpie · 22/01/2019 23:19

Hi all,

I am advertising on behalf of Cambridge Radical Feminist Network, which is having their first meeting of the term this Sunday:

www.facebook.com/events/2094798013875956/

The first topic is 'Sex and social constructivism'.

You can also follow them on Twitter @camradfems

twitter.com/camradfems

And one of our members has written a piece about Gender Neutral bathrooms, which can be found here:

medium.com/@imogengl/there-is-nothing-progressive-about-removing-women-only-bathrooms-37729064cfb7

OP posts:
maniacmagpie · 18/01/2019 22:59

AlwaysTawnyOwl, you are quite right that 'transphobe' or 'TERF' has been slung around for such inane things that it has quite lost its power over me; however it's the women still caught doing the wifework for the entitled that are still affected by the sentiment.

I see it over and over again; the assertion that the only thing my detractors need do is champion their own empathy and their commitment to equality without exception. A righteous rage fills TRAs; they need not contemplate nuance, or consider that I may be a human just like them with compassion and empathy for people other than myself.

Over and over again 'TERFs' are compared to nazis and paedophiles online. Young people proudly throw the 'TERFs don't interact' as if this is meaningful activism, or throw 'trans people welcome!' as if people like us had ever said otherwise - as if that is a meaningful rebuttal.

My favourite so far has to be a flyby yell of 'trans people are people!'

Honestly - my empathy for lazy 'activism' is dropping and dropping. There is no attempt to engage with the issue, no actual care for whether the proposed solution might possibly help, and no care for the reasoning behind attacking women who speak out.
It is a thought-terminating cliche - nothing more. Let them steam. Let them shout.

They attack women because we are seen as soft, empathetic, and vulnerable. They attack women because they can count on our sympathy. They push women because they know we will pull out all the stops to help them.

My attention was recently directed to this:

ask.fm/cusutrans/answers/127641811152

Can sexual preference= transphobia? Im a cis woman, almost exclusively attracted to AFAB ppl (incl women + NB ppl) So Im attracted to women, but since Im generally not attracted to AMAB bodies, this cld mean that I wouldnt be attracted to transwomen. (1/2)
Make No Assumptions

q cont: "I see transwomen as women (which they are!) however I cant help having a sexual preference which favours + excludes certain different types of bodies. Therefore, is it transphobic to say 'I can be attracted to cis-women but generally not transwomen' ? (2/2)"

Firstly: you're assuming you know what a trans woman's body will look like. You assume you know what body parts she may or may not have. You need to have a serious think about why this is.

What is it about "AMAB bodies" that you aren't attracted to? Not all amab or afab people have the same bodies. There exist so many variations in people's physical characteristics that lumping bodies into those two categories is obsolete anyway. To assume that all amab or afab people will have certain characteristics, rather than just defining the characteristics you're attracted to, is kind of a weird way to go about it. It's inherently cissexist, transphobic, and buys into the concept of an infallible sex binary that just doesn't exist.

(Also: "cis women" with a space, but "transwomen" without one - why? "Trans" is an adjective just like "cis" is.)

I'm going to take a not-too-far leap and assume you're talking about being attracted, or not attracted, to certain genitalia. If so, examine your thought processes. When you see someone presenting feminine, does your mind immediately jump to what genitals they have before you consider whether or not you find them attractive? Or do you simply presume, based on other physical characteristics (what might be termed 'secondary sex characteristics')? If the latter, that's a cissexist presumption. Sure, we all do it. But we need to make sure we think twice.

Wanting to engage in certain sex acts, or interact with certain body parts, is a preference of sexual behaviour. It's not the same as attraction. If you met a cis woman who didn't want anyone to interact with her vagina, but loved anal sex, and you weren't into that, would you define yourself as not attracted to cis women because of that? You’re allowed to have preferences about what sex acts you want to indulge in and which ones you don’t, but don't conflate that with attraction.

Also: I'm sure you personally aren't violently transmisogynistic, but the same things that lead you to ask these questions are the things that lead to trans women's deaths. This sexuality related disgust is shared by men who treat trans women (especially trans women of colour) as sex objects. This disgust is by far the most common cause of their brutal murders.

I feel like you asked this question to be reassured that you're not transphobic/transmisogynistic. I'm not going to do that here. We /all/ are. We can't be uncritical about our assumptions and attractions. We all need to deconstruct the societal cissexism we've internalised.

Think about people, not bodies. Don't generalise physical characteristics to groups of people. And thanks for asking this question and being open to interrogating your own sexuality.

(emphasis mine)

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To my sister asking this question, wherever you are, I stand with you, and I am sorry, and I hope you are alright wherever you are. Homosexuality is natural, beautiful, and normal.

To whoever wrote this mess, quite frankly, fuck you. How dare you claim that not allowing a woman her boundaries will save trans'women' from violence. How dare you claim that a lesbian woman's sexuality can be likened to the sentiment that motivates men - men, men, MEN! to murder trans'women'! HOW DARE YOU!

Enough. You go after the empathetic, the people pleasers, the people you know you can bully into submission.

But you can't do that to me any more. How does it feel, to know I stand here, and I stand against you, and every dirty trick you pull to crush me - every dirty trick you pull to crush the doubt in empathetic, compassionate women - every dirty trick you pull to exploit our almost endless goodwill - hasn't worked?

Test your strength on me.

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I will be on King's Parade on Saturday (tomorrow) from 2pm to 4pm. The students are back. It will probably be noisier than last time.

Quite frankly I don't give a shit. I support women. I support men. I support trans people, and gay men, and lesbian women.

I don't need to capitulate to noisy, self-righteous conversion therapists to know this to be true.

OP posts:
AlwaysTawnyOwl · 05/01/2019 21:45

I've only just seen this posting and it's very thoughtful and interesting. I'm a middle aged mum and don't give a flying f* about being called 'transphobic' - the term is banded about so much for such nonsensical things that it has no meaning or force. I take it as a badge of honour - it means that I care about hard-won rights for women and girls. I went to A Womans Place meeting and afterwards got chanted at by a (rather soggy) group of (mainly) young men standing outside with a very sorry looking banner which no-one could read. Frankly they were a sad bunch and there is really no need to be in any way scared of them. I have always been a strong advocate for gay rights and don't think that transsexual people should be discriminated against in employment, victimised, harassed or abused in any way. That's why 'gender reassignment' is a protected characteristic in the Equality Act. But for TRAs this isn't about that. Self-id is about the rights of men to enter any female space they choose - be that women's meetings where they demand that discussion of female body parts is banned as 'not all women have them', women's sports where their greater body strength gives them an unfair advantage, women's changing rooms and dormitories where women are changing/sleeping, all-women shortlists and prizes designed to promote women in areas where they have faced hurdles to equality, even to women's own bodies. I am not lesbian but the cotton ceiling is particularly repugnant and makes me suspect that the motivations for many of those complaining about lesbians being unwilling to sleep with 'lady dick' are about a desire to 'do a lesbian properly'. Self-id is clearly wide open to abuse - and the unsavoury backgrounds of many prominent TRAs makes me very concerned - Jonathan/Jessica Yaniv clearly a paedophile and sex abuser, Karen White (not the only male prisoner transferred to a female prison and then abusing other female prisoners), Johanna/Jonathan Wolf and John Ozimek/Jane Fae advocate of 'extreme' porn - just for the record he/she wrote and uploaded to the internet a story fantasising about killings the members of a real female pop group, cutting up their bodies and having sex with their body parts. These are the people calling YOU 'transphobic'.

maniacmagpie · 05/01/2019 02:02

Hi all,

I did get pretty bogged down over the festive period, so I haven't been terribly active on here.

I will be out on King's Parade Sat 5th (today) 2pm to 4pm, missing a weekend on the 12th, and then in general should be back on regular protesting and proper updates.

Good luck to those of you starting to feel braver and I hope to meet those of you in the area who have been lurking! Take your time, and when you're ready just remember we're out here. It would be wrong for us to pretend that this toxic (lack of) debate doesn't have real consequences when we start sticking our heads out. I hope that the things I have said about what's been directed my way haven't been putting people off, but I think it's right to be frank. This has been a nasty fight and some of us have lost friends and support. Many have fared worse than that.

Gender criticism and/or rad-leaning feminism has not made my life easier, but let me express and explain my difficulties, pain, and rage at things that are not my fault. Balancing this against the need to be kind is very hard. It is hard not to feel like you're simply being a bad person for the sake of it.

Kindness isn't about giving people what they want. I am under no obligation to set myself on fire to keep others warm. The same is true for you all. It is ok - honestly, really, truly ok - for you to ask, when others demand of you, what they are willing to give back to you.

Here's to 2019. Work to do, gals. Work to do.

Magpie

OP posts:
ukcamstudent · 31/12/2018 13:12

Messaging all the people I see here who want to get involved - reminder that if anybody here wants to get involved please send either myself or maniacmagpie a PM! Real-world networking is so important, and a lot more fun as well!

Lefthanddown · 23/12/2018 22:16

Have a stress free Christmas and New Year Magpie. Hope to catch up with you in Jan.