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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Call for gender critical people in Cambridge, UK

281 replies

maniacmagpie · 24/09/2018 12:21

DISCLAIMER: am not a mum and am relatively young. Have lurked intermittently here and in other feminism spaces, largely interacting with other young people (student age). Due to my age, my main exposure to these issues is from the point of view of someone moving in young liberal spaces, and my call is phrased accordingly, rather than among adult women who have a more tangible experience of systematic sexism in society, medicine and life. PLEASE let me know if this not the appropriate place for this request, and I will step back.

This is a message that I have started to spread: I have not generally been a social person and so am finding it relatively difficult to get started on contacting people. If I can get in contact with other people who share my concerns in person that would be great: if not, I will do what I can.

"Hello.

I am a student at Cambridge University. I have been left-leaning my whole adult life. I have been supportive of trans rights for years. I have always believed, and continue to firmly believe, that discrimination on the basis of being trans is unacceptable; trans people should have access to the care that they need, and do not deserve to be treated as lesser people on the basis of who they are.

Despite this, I have become increasingly alarmed by the discourse surrounding trans activism. For many years I crushed my own thoughts about misogyny, my doubts about my own understanding of sexism, with the thoughts that I must not ‘get’ it as a ‘cis’ female. I believed - or rather, forced myself to believe, when I couldn’t truly believe - that trans people, and specifically trans women, completely understand what it means to be the gender they identify with.

I no longer believe this. Please, before you dismiss me as a bigot, hear me out.

I no longer believe womanhood is a mystical force that can be detached at will from the reality of the female body, I do not believe that femininity is the target of misogyny, because non-conforming women suffer still from misogyny. I do not believe that even trans men are able to escape all misogyny and their own socialisation by transitioning - they are still able to be, and indeed have been, targeted by sexual violence in a way that only male-bodied people can visit on female-bodied people - reproductive violence, that can result in pregnancy, and the associated policing of bodily autonomy that comes with that. I believe that trans women are the targets of misogyny when it is assumed they are female bodied, and homophobia and fear when they are assumed to be male. I do not believe that it is reasonable, or appropriate, to demand that natal women stop talking about reproductive violence due to this misdirected misogyny. I do not believe that this statement is transphobic.

I believe that transphobia - job discrimination, verbal abuse and violence - is unacceptable. However, I strongly disagree that certain actions that are labelled as transphobic among progressives, are transphobic at all. I believe, not only that homosexual men and women have every right to reject opposite-sexed people as sexual and romantic partners, but also that the demands circulated among many progressive forums are damaging to young people’s understanding of their sexuality. Specifically, the toxic combination of female socialisation, lack of resources for isolated girls, and pornsick fetishisation of lesbianism for the consumption of men makes lesbian youth vulnerable to manipulation and gaslighting from mainstream LGBT+ groups, illustrated by the horrific discourse about the ‘cotton ceiling’. Not wanting to sleep with someone is not violence. Inclusivity is not something that is expressed through access to your body. I do not believe that in normal conversation it is at all reasonable to demand that any person, trans or otherwise, talk about their genitals - but sexual relationships are another matter. Sexual relationships should only be engaged with by two willing and enthusiastic participants. Human sexuality is, and should be, exclusive and not a target for guilt-tripping.

I believe that specific difficulties are presented to trans people that they should have the resources to deal with and spaces to talk about. However, I also believe that specific difficulties are presented to female people on the basis of their bodies - and that discussion of these issues is not transphobia. Naming reproductive violence for what it is, campaigning for better understanding of female medical issues in the face of the huge male bias of modern medicine, and recognition of the economic and social penalties endured by female people specifically on the basis of being physically female and not due to an inner identity, is not transphobia.

Gender hurts. Gender is a system designed to trap and control female people from birth through childhood, adolescence, adulthood and old age, because of their reproductive capabilities. This system did not fall from the heavens; it was created by males, to benefit males. Women have always, and continue to, suffer under this system - our economic power restricted, our lives at the mercy of men, our bodies policed, our voices ignored - because we are female, because we are chattel, because of those who believe we are lesser. Gender is the reinforcement of sex stereotypes, that women have fought against and will continue to fight against, as long as it exists.

Many males suffer under this system - gender non-conforming males are at inordinate risk of violence, generally from other males - due to stepping out of line. Boys who show emotion are punished for it. Gender hurts - gender is not a fun hat to take on and off, gender kills boys and men for behaving the wrong way, and girls and women for both resisting and capitulating. Gender is not a fun toy to play with and to swap around. Gender is a system designed to break us down.

‘Pussy grabs back’ - women cry - because the President of the United States said ‘grab them by the pussy’. Not ‘grab them by the feminine essence’ or ‘grab them by the girl brain’ or ‘grab them by the emotional intelligence’. Grab them by the pussy. Grab this creature who exists for his consumption and pleasure, by the only thing that gives them value in his eyes. Focusing on this does not make women genital obsessed. Pointing out that this is the root of our oppression is not transmisogyny. Recognising that we are treated this way because of our bodies is not a statement that it is the most important aspect of our selves, but a declaration that we are more than our bodies - and that we must be able to name the problem in order to combat the problem. Saying ‘this pussy grabs back’ is not transphobia. Recognising the extreme sexism of powerful men is not transphobia.

I retain a deep sympathy for those who suffer with dysphoria and deal with it in the best way they can. My stance on trans identities is roughly that of a medicalist. I believe that trans people are fully deserving of respect, the same rights as every other person, and freedom from discrimination. I believe that what is being asked, by certain noisy factions of trans rights extremists, is not a call for respect but rather a call for excessive privileges at the expense largely of natal females, and a targeted bullying of lesbian females and homosexual males. I do not believe that it is transphobic to point this out.

I do not believe in brain sex, but even if I did I think it is irrelevant - if you carved open a woman to find a clearly, obviously male brain with MAN branded in big blue letters, she would still have suffered sexism based on her body. To those who believe this to be true, that they are ‘born in the wrong body’ and the only way to alleviate this is transition, I respect your autonomy and your right to live as you feel best, but must say this: sexism visited on a man in a woman’s body is no worse than sexism visited on a woman in a woman’s body. Sexism hurts ‘cis’ women as much as it hurts female-bodied people who identify otherwise. I do not believe this is a transphobic thing to say.

I want to raise awareness and spark discussion in Cambridge, both in and outside the University. I want to discuss these issues, in light of the gender self-ID consultation, the silencing of A Women’s Place UK, the violence perpetrated upon women who speak out, and the vitriol being circulated against gender critics. I invite natal women, natal men, trans women, trans men, straight, bisexual, gay, lesbian, questioning, otherwise - anyone who wants to discuss, debate or just acknowledge this topic - to contact me. My wish is to provide a space to debate and discuss these topics outside the false dichotomy of the ‘conservative right’ and the ‘progressive left’. I want to reach out to the women suffering from misogyny, men suffering from enforcement of toxic masculinity, and trans, lesbian and gay people who are being failed by conservative families on the right and by ‘queer identity’ theorists on the left who describe their reality as transphobic, who feel silenced and unable to speak out without being branded as either morally disgusting or as bigots.

Please spread this. PM me. I want to talk. I’m reaching out. I will use the tag ‘gender hurts uk’ (on tumblr, where my blog is 'yourledgerisdripping'), or privately message those of you who reach out to me.

Gender hurts."

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maniacmagpie · 29/09/2018 19:11

Yo all,

I think it went pretty well. In the end I went with only

'acknowledging biological sex is NOT hate speech'

and got some very interesting responses.

A lot of people came up to ask me 'what's all this about?' which was what I hoped for because it does seem very strange to those not in the loop. One man asked if I blogged, I told him where to find this thread. He also asked for a picture of me and the sign. Apparently some american women (I did not interact with them, but somebody else was nearby telling them what I was on about) were excited by my very pink hat too. (I hate pink. I spent my whole childhood fighting pink. Apparently we all have our price.)

I also got, encouragingly, a lot of knowing nods and somebody gave me a thumbs up, which I'd also hoped for - I assume similarly frustrated that the 'woke' thing to do involves no ability to discuss the material conditions in which we live without being accused of 'creating a hostile environment'. I definitely got a bit of that 'thank fuck other people know it's not unreasonable to need to be able to describe things' kind of vibes, but it remains to be seen whether anyone decides to connect.

I'm hoping to repeat this next weekend. It's sort of my intention to be a regular fixture so that people can be like 'yeah I saw Pink Hat out and about again today, what do you think of that'?

Magpie

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gendercritter · 29/09/2018 18:45

I do look back on this post with a lot of critiques (also some of the grammar would horrify my English teachers)

I type my posts here quite quickly and the number of times I've looked back and thought I come across as practically illiterate Grin.... I facepalm a lot.

If you're a clever female you are quite likely to be a perfectionist too, and that can hinder you. Don't stress it. You're doing something brave and lots of us are behind you.

NopeNi · 29/09/2018 18:40

How did it go OP? Hope you're okay

shorthairdontcare · 29/09/2018 05:59

Hi, long time lurker on these boards but signed up to post - I am also a current Cambridge student who is becoming increasingly fed up with the lack of spaces available to discuss these sorts of issues in person, the only prominent feminist groups all seem to be of the CUSU 'let's educate the world on the real meaning of TERF' variety. If you are interested in perhaps starting a group of likeminded people who want to discuss real feminist issues and not just lady penises, please PM me (just joined, no idea how to contact you privately myself!).

If I see you around on King's Parade tomorrow, I'll stop and say hi :-)

DorothyGarrod · 29/09/2018 00:02

Good luck, Magpie! I’m not in Cambridge this weekend otherwise I would have tried to pop by. The city is teeming with students and their parents this weekend so you will have lots of passing footfall!

maniacmagpie · 28/09/2018 23:51

Hey gals,

I've decided on King's Parade. Should be a high traffic area with enough people around that I don't get dragged down an alley, and there should be porters at the gate. (All joking aside, I will be careful. Thank you all for your support.)

Other people have confirmed that my hat is indeed extremely pink.

Magpie

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maniacmagpie · 28/09/2018 15:32

Thanks for the support all.

Responding to Deathgrip:

"If it were me, I’d remove the reference to gender not being a “fun hat” - it’s the only part that I would say trivialises and could be particularly contentious."

Thanks for the comment. I do look back on this post with a lot of critiques (also some of the grammar would horrify my English teachers). I personally prefer not to modify posts as I believe that I should be able to either defend my choice of words, choose differently in the future if they turn out to be poorly chosen for the point I'm trying to get across, clarify them (as I did for my post on what I meant by 'old school trans'), or apologise if I said something unambiguously rude.

On the 'fun hat', my intention is to say that certain people understand gender to mean simply the way one expresses themselves whilst others understand it to mean the system by which they are forced to act in certain ways as defined by our society - hence why I choose to say 'gender hurts'. I think counts is how other people treat you, and I think that language is a means to communicate concepts between people. So my understanding of 'gender' is 'framework of expectations of appearance and behaviour placed upon people due to their sex' - that boys don't cry, that girls should be willing to please. Under this framework, men who are assertive are better respected than women who do the same. The woman is being punished for stepping out of line.

Basically some people conflate gender with gender expression, and this conflation leads to problems. The situation with Pips Bunce, who does not even call himself a woman, being on the Financial Times Top 100 Female Champions of women in business, is someone treating 'gender' in a trivial way - I would describe what he does as 'treating gender like a fun hat'. We might not agree that it should be called gender, perhaps we would call it 'gender expression', but clearly in this situation it is being treated as if it were more like 'gender identity' by the Financial Times. The looseness of the definition is a huge issue.

It feels very deliberate - most people have sympathy for a trans person who struggles with their body and just wants to live a quiet life. What most people don't realise is that 'trans' has quietly been distorted to encompass far more than before, and so has 'gender' - by co-opting the real difficulties and dangers faced by some trans people, activists can more easily frame their demands as a call for compassion.

Essentially what I'm trying to do is address the fact that some people treat it in a trivial way, so I chose the trivialising phrase 'fun hat'. I'll try to be clearer in the future, does this address your concerns on the phrasing?

Also, I really appreciate your concern for my safety - I'm NOT being sarcastic, tone is very difficult on the internet. The messages of support and concern from everyone matter a great deal to me.

I'm taking a calculated risk...we'll find out how bad my maths is soon. ;)

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NoPeni · 28/09/2018 12:02

Good luck OP. I just googled and it's over 3 hours away from me or I'd have come over in solidarity!

Deathgrip · 28/09/2018 11:30

OP, I respect and appreciate you being vocal in ways that I cannot at this point in my life.

What you are saying is eminently reasonable, but that doesn’t mean you won’t be attacked for it. Please be extremely careful that people cannot track down your address and family details online. These people are not messing around.

If it were me, I’d remove the reference to gender not being a “fun hat” - it’s the only part that I would say trivialises and could be particularly contentious. Other than that I think it’s very fair.

PicnicPie · 28/09/2018 11:16

Good luck for tomorrow. Your OP was very clear and something which I'm supportive of. I'm not good on social media but would be interested in hearing about the progress you make and hope that you are able to update through this thread.

maniacmagpie · 28/09/2018 10:59

Hey gals (any men here - I'm using 'gals' as a catch all. If I can live with 'guys' being used as a catch all phrase then you can live with 'gals')

I'm planning to be out and about in Cambridge town centre tomorrow afternoon - planning to be from 2pm to 5pm. I will be wearing a pink hat and holding a sign that says:

acknowledging biological sex is not hate speech
debate me on gender issues

I hope that the wording makes it clear the sort of crowd that this is targeted to, but since I've not yet actually made the sign I invite critique/suggestions on better wording.

A load of you have expressed interest in meeting up, or simply said that you are around in Cambridge - I'd love it if people could come to chat over that time period, just so I know that I'm not gonna be sitting there for three hours and not manage to do anything! If you know when you'll be around and are planning to stop by I'd appreciate it if you drop me a PM.

As always though, I do not begrudge anyone keeping their heads down in this climate.

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Evidencebased · 26/09/2018 23:32

Bravo!

Not in Cambridge, but within travelling distance, and v interested in any meeting.

inquiquotiokixul · 26/09/2018 23:05

I'm not Cambridge but just wanted to say thank you for a very clear and well written OP.

DorothyGarrod · 26/09/2018 22:42

There’s loads of us in Cambridge. Smile

ukcamstudent · 26/09/2018 22:38

AnnMSinnott - I already know you Grin just using an anon username for these purposes

AnnMSinnott · 26/09/2018 22:30

ukcamstudent Will you also PM/DM me on Twitter @AnnMSinnott or on Fb www.facebook.com/ann.sinnott.01 I'll put you in touch with another Cam student.

AnnMSinnott · 26/09/2018 22:12

maniacmagpie can you please PM/DM me on Twitter: @AnnMSinnott or Fb: www.facebook.com/ann.sinnott.01

maniacmagpie · 26/09/2018 13:11

CLARIFICATION:

What I mean by 'old school' trans people, using 'male', 'female', and 'homosexual' in their biological terms:

My understanding is that historically the trans community consisted of primarily gay male people and lesbian female people (homosexual people) who transitioned to cope with dysphoria, homophobia, or both. They had strong ties to the drag king and drag queen communities, acknowledged their biological sex, and generally did not claim to redefine 'men' and 'women'.

This community still exists, includes many young trans people (so I am using 'old school' as a descriptor of attitude and not actual age) and faces many problems in society, but I am of the opinion that their difficulties (mental illness, transphobic abuse, murder rate in the US) have been co-opted to a large extent by what I am calling 'modern trans activism' - ID politics, gender as the true indicator not only for 'who you are' but also, CRUCIALLY, what rights you should have. I observe that there is a schism between the two, and it seems to me that on the whole 'modern trans activism' uses the difficulties faced by 'old school trans people' as a prop to advance their agenda and then will happily shout them down if any disagreement is voiced. I am perfectly willing to believe that prostituted trans women of colour face appalling rates of violence and that they require particular protection and compassion. I am not willing to believe that wealthy people in higher education who are gender conforming in all ways save that they sometimes change their pronouns share that experience.

I may or may not agree with them on the finer points of how the world works, but many trans people are open to civilised dialogue on the meaning of sex and the reality of misogyny.

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maniacmagpie · 26/09/2018 12:43

Responding to Lefthanddown's comment

"You say you intend to be openly visible in the coming weeks. Can I ask what you mean by being openly visible?"

It appears to me that a huge issue with the conversation (well...lack thereof) is the inability of people to trust others behind a wall of anonymity - which I do not think is paranoia or hysterical, we only need to look to the incident at Speaker's Corner, the continued harassment of A Woman's Place UK and online bullying of people who hold any views not conforming to the modern trans rights narrative (including, almost hilariously if it wasn't so sad, what I would term as 'old school' trans people).

So to get round this I'm just going to express these views - that we must be able to talk about biological sex, that we must be honest about the fact that the push for gender as the protected characteristic necessarily erases sex as the protected characteristic and that it is dishonest to pretend otherwise, that women's concerns stemming from a lifelong experience of misogyny are not hate speech - in public, with my face and name attached to the sentiment. As outlined above, it is my personal intention to invite dialogue with people I may or may not agree with.

I will be physically visible and inviting conversation, with my name and face to my views. If you see me, you can approach me if you want, or not, but I'm willing to stick my head up above the parapet whether or not you feel able to do so. I'm willing to break the ice on this difficulty with anonymity. I'm not yet finalised on exactly when and where I will be, but I will be obvious, and will update details soon.

It is my hope that this will embolden others, that they realise that these 'unspeakable' points of view really aren't hate speech, that there are people out there speaking up.

It is telling that it took me so long even to anonymously express my OP.

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NoseringGirl · 25/09/2018 17:20

I don't live I Cambridge anymore (haven't done for a few years now) but just wanted to say that your OP summed up my own feelings on the issues better than I've been able to myself. Wishing you all the best!

ukcamstudent · 25/09/2018 16:22

Hi all,

I'm a gender critical PhD student at Cambridge. I've messaged the two users who posted above to say they were/will be students.

If any other Cambridge students see this page, please send me a private message. We've got big plans for the soon-to-start academic year and it would be great to get as many people involved as possible from the get go.

Lefthanddown · 24/09/2018 23:55

You say you intend to be openly visible in the coming weeks. Can I ask what you mean by being openly visible?

AmateurSwami · 24/09/2018 17:44

Very clear * (unlike my post...)

AmateurSwami · 24/09/2018 17:44

What you’re saying makes beyvvlear logical sense to me.

maniacmagpie · 24/09/2018 16:10

Thank you all for the swift responses. I will link to the suggested thread. As to the meetup format - I plan to be very obviously visible in the coming weeks in the town centre. I am aware of the backlash that has surrounded the meetings of A Woman's Place UK, particularly the incident in Speaker's Corner, and do not expect anyone to make themselves visible, whether to me or anyone else. In fact I crashed into my current understanding just a couple of days before they met in Cambridge, and of course by then it was impossible to join the meeting. I have phrased this call in a broad language, generalised way as a specific counterpoint to the mainstream progressive groups in Cambridge University, to encourage people to realise that not all debate is the same as hate, so any discussions that I create from this particular campaign would be intended to be open to all 'identities' whether or not I agree with them - as stated above, I actually believe that many aspects of the discussion miss the point - but would certainly be interested in participating in specifically gender critical groups. If you know other good forums that could be reached, or personally know people who are interested, feel free to spread this and point them my way, with the promise that I bear absolutely no grudge against people remaining anonymous. I don't think it is paranoia at all.

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