Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Call for gender critical people in Cambridge, UK

281 replies

maniacmagpie · 24/09/2018 12:21

DISCLAIMER: am not a mum and am relatively young. Have lurked intermittently here and in other feminism spaces, largely interacting with other young people (student age). Due to my age, my main exposure to these issues is from the point of view of someone moving in young liberal spaces, and my call is phrased accordingly, rather than among adult women who have a more tangible experience of systematic sexism in society, medicine and life. PLEASE let me know if this not the appropriate place for this request, and I will step back.

This is a message that I have started to spread: I have not generally been a social person and so am finding it relatively difficult to get started on contacting people. If I can get in contact with other people who share my concerns in person that would be great: if not, I will do what I can.

"Hello.

I am a student at Cambridge University. I have been left-leaning my whole adult life. I have been supportive of trans rights for years. I have always believed, and continue to firmly believe, that discrimination on the basis of being trans is unacceptable; trans people should have access to the care that they need, and do not deserve to be treated as lesser people on the basis of who they are.

Despite this, I have become increasingly alarmed by the discourse surrounding trans activism. For many years I crushed my own thoughts about misogyny, my doubts about my own understanding of sexism, with the thoughts that I must not ‘get’ it as a ‘cis’ female. I believed - or rather, forced myself to believe, when I couldn’t truly believe - that trans people, and specifically trans women, completely understand what it means to be the gender they identify with.

I no longer believe this. Please, before you dismiss me as a bigot, hear me out.

I no longer believe womanhood is a mystical force that can be detached at will from the reality of the female body, I do not believe that femininity is the target of misogyny, because non-conforming women suffer still from misogyny. I do not believe that even trans men are able to escape all misogyny and their own socialisation by transitioning - they are still able to be, and indeed have been, targeted by sexual violence in a way that only male-bodied people can visit on female-bodied people - reproductive violence, that can result in pregnancy, and the associated policing of bodily autonomy that comes with that. I believe that trans women are the targets of misogyny when it is assumed they are female bodied, and homophobia and fear when they are assumed to be male. I do not believe that it is reasonable, or appropriate, to demand that natal women stop talking about reproductive violence due to this misdirected misogyny. I do not believe that this statement is transphobic.

I believe that transphobia - job discrimination, verbal abuse and violence - is unacceptable. However, I strongly disagree that certain actions that are labelled as transphobic among progressives, are transphobic at all. I believe, not only that homosexual men and women have every right to reject opposite-sexed people as sexual and romantic partners, but also that the demands circulated among many progressive forums are damaging to young people’s understanding of their sexuality. Specifically, the toxic combination of female socialisation, lack of resources for isolated girls, and pornsick fetishisation of lesbianism for the consumption of men makes lesbian youth vulnerable to manipulation and gaslighting from mainstream LGBT+ groups, illustrated by the horrific discourse about the ‘cotton ceiling’. Not wanting to sleep with someone is not violence. Inclusivity is not something that is expressed through access to your body. I do not believe that in normal conversation it is at all reasonable to demand that any person, trans or otherwise, talk about their genitals - but sexual relationships are another matter. Sexual relationships should only be engaged with by two willing and enthusiastic participants. Human sexuality is, and should be, exclusive and not a target for guilt-tripping.

I believe that specific difficulties are presented to trans people that they should have the resources to deal with and spaces to talk about. However, I also believe that specific difficulties are presented to female people on the basis of their bodies - and that discussion of these issues is not transphobia. Naming reproductive violence for what it is, campaigning for better understanding of female medical issues in the face of the huge male bias of modern medicine, and recognition of the economic and social penalties endured by female people specifically on the basis of being physically female and not due to an inner identity, is not transphobia.

Gender hurts. Gender is a system designed to trap and control female people from birth through childhood, adolescence, adulthood and old age, because of their reproductive capabilities. This system did not fall from the heavens; it was created by males, to benefit males. Women have always, and continue to, suffer under this system - our economic power restricted, our lives at the mercy of men, our bodies policed, our voices ignored - because we are female, because we are chattel, because of those who believe we are lesser. Gender is the reinforcement of sex stereotypes, that women have fought against and will continue to fight against, as long as it exists.

Many males suffer under this system - gender non-conforming males are at inordinate risk of violence, generally from other males - due to stepping out of line. Boys who show emotion are punished for it. Gender hurts - gender is not a fun hat to take on and off, gender kills boys and men for behaving the wrong way, and girls and women for both resisting and capitulating. Gender is not a fun toy to play with and to swap around. Gender is a system designed to break us down.

‘Pussy grabs back’ - women cry - because the President of the United States said ‘grab them by the pussy’. Not ‘grab them by the feminine essence’ or ‘grab them by the girl brain’ or ‘grab them by the emotional intelligence’. Grab them by the pussy. Grab this creature who exists for his consumption and pleasure, by the only thing that gives them value in his eyes. Focusing on this does not make women genital obsessed. Pointing out that this is the root of our oppression is not transmisogyny. Recognising that we are treated this way because of our bodies is not a statement that it is the most important aspect of our selves, but a declaration that we are more than our bodies - and that we must be able to name the problem in order to combat the problem. Saying ‘this pussy grabs back’ is not transphobia. Recognising the extreme sexism of powerful men is not transphobia.

I retain a deep sympathy for those who suffer with dysphoria and deal with it in the best way they can. My stance on trans identities is roughly that of a medicalist. I believe that trans people are fully deserving of respect, the same rights as every other person, and freedom from discrimination. I believe that what is being asked, by certain noisy factions of trans rights extremists, is not a call for respect but rather a call for excessive privileges at the expense largely of natal females, and a targeted bullying of lesbian females and homosexual males. I do not believe that it is transphobic to point this out.

I do not believe in brain sex, but even if I did I think it is irrelevant - if you carved open a woman to find a clearly, obviously male brain with MAN branded in big blue letters, she would still have suffered sexism based on her body. To those who believe this to be true, that they are ‘born in the wrong body’ and the only way to alleviate this is transition, I respect your autonomy and your right to live as you feel best, but must say this: sexism visited on a man in a woman’s body is no worse than sexism visited on a woman in a woman’s body. Sexism hurts ‘cis’ women as much as it hurts female-bodied people who identify otherwise. I do not believe this is a transphobic thing to say.

I want to raise awareness and spark discussion in Cambridge, both in and outside the University. I want to discuss these issues, in light of the gender self-ID consultation, the silencing of A Women’s Place UK, the violence perpetrated upon women who speak out, and the vitriol being circulated against gender critics. I invite natal women, natal men, trans women, trans men, straight, bisexual, gay, lesbian, questioning, otherwise - anyone who wants to discuss, debate or just acknowledge this topic - to contact me. My wish is to provide a space to debate and discuss these topics outside the false dichotomy of the ‘conservative right’ and the ‘progressive left’. I want to reach out to the women suffering from misogyny, men suffering from enforcement of toxic masculinity, and trans, lesbian and gay people who are being failed by conservative families on the right and by ‘queer identity’ theorists on the left who describe their reality as transphobic, who feel silenced and unable to speak out without being branded as either morally disgusting or as bigots.

Please spread this. PM me. I want to talk. I’m reaching out. I will use the tag ‘gender hurts uk’ (on tumblr, where my blog is 'yourledgerisdripping'), or privately message those of you who reach out to me.

Gender hurts."

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
Ereshkigal · 11/10/2018 11:10

Well done OP, I hope it goes well on Saturday Thanks

maniacmagpie · 11/10/2018 10:59

Yo gals,

Saturday 2pm to 5pm again. King's Parade.

I spent a while thinking about things after a arguments with a good friend. I admit to getting too far upset and also I definitely didn't have the grounds to be wasting his time with the argument, but anyway.

The path is important when we talk about feminism (preaching to the choir I know) and a lot of what we say about what hurts 'women' is what also hurts 'girls' and also how being a female child - a girl - forges someone into womanhood. The path is important. The more people argue with me about how it's not the more convinced I am that it is. I cannot see a male telling me what to say and think and do, dismissing my 'claim' to womanhood as no more authentic than theirs, as doing anything other than lacking the empathy that all males have for female experiences. It's such an obviously male behaviour - and the fact that I'm being asked to overlook it? the fact that I'm told it's not what it is? is male too.

Sometimes I want to scream that I would be so, so much more open to accepting trans women if they asked natal women what our experiences were like and tried to absorb them rather than dictating down to us what it must be like. I'd be much more ok with Madigan if she said 'I have not experienced some of these things so I must make an extra effort to learn about them' rather than 'I have not experienced these things so they are nothing to do with womanhood'.

The sheer lack of empathy enrages me and hardens me more every day. Obviously the conversation is incredibly toxic right now and I will try not to build up too much resentment, but the absolute lack of empathy - and endless demands for more from me! - are driving me round the bend.

How do I explain that? People think I'm burning bridges and trampling on a vulnerable minority for the heck of it and I just can't, can't explain how little we've got back, that the constant demands for compromise and caution and altering language and accommodation have lost us too much, that it's just unreasonable to keep demanding more and more and act like it isn't going to break us, and then think oh! crazy bitch, I'm making reasonable requests, she's excluding me for no reason. Isn't it weird to them that so many lifelong trans-supportive women have suddenly closed ranks? Don't they understand why we are flipping in droves?

A trans woman is a trans woman and a trans man is a trans man. They may require protection from discrimination and I think that we should take steps to cover this. I have literally no problem with people living a certain way and respect them as what they are. But what they are is what they materially are, a male who looks as close as possible to female and vice versa, in order to live their lives comfortably. Telling me that by not believing the same way as they do is dehumanising is absolute madness. You cannot force me to believe something that I do not believe, and very few believe that a full sex change is medically possible, and I do not separate gender and sex fully because most people don't use language that way, and language is for communicating concepts that people mutually understand. You can't use a personal definition for a word and expect people to understand what you mean and call them bigoted if they don't. That's ridiculous.

I am tired, and worn down. I fully expect Saturday to be very nasty.

Magpie

OP posts:
NopeNi · 07/10/2018 07:07

Ah, wrong thread. Always wondered how people did that. Sorry!

NopeNi · 07/10/2018 07:07

(And thank you for the share token) Smile

maniacmagpie · 06/10/2018 23:16

Manderleyagain - when my mother was the age that I was when I entered university women (female women!) had been admitted to my college for only a couple of years. My grandmother was illiterate; women couldn't study where she was. My school - an all girls school - was one of the oldest in England at a hundred and something years old...to say that female-ness has nothing to do with the way we are treated is, shall we say, interesting. Thanks for the advice, I am reaching out to people when I have the time and energy.

I understand where these people are coming from. They truly believe they are sticking up for a minority and that I am attacking them out of bigotry. I will stand my ground because I believe that they are hurting more people than they are helping, even if they do not believe me, and I don't believe they are bad people, just...blinded by the desire to protect who they believe are the most vulnerable minority. I can forgive them for that even if I think (and the rest of us think) that it's misguided, and I hope that if they ever change their minds they find it in themselves to forgive me.

OP posts:
EmilieDuChatelet · 06/10/2018 22:39

Kudos to you maniacmagpie for what you are doing. Your feedback from the discussions is interesting reading.

Manderleyagain · 06/10/2018 22:02

Well done and thank you. You make a huge number of excellent points.
The people who thought trans women would have been barred from university - it just goes to show how a-historical these beliefs are. The lack of understanding that it is female people who have been grossly disadvantaged not feminine people has been lost.
It might be worth you contacting the small number of out gc academics to see if they know of more like minded people in cambs to signpost to this thread.

AnchorMum · 06/10/2018 21:40

Great to hear how you got on today - thank you so much for having the courage to get out
on the streets of Cambridge and have these conversations.

Women like you give me hope for the future of our world 💐

Fishywishyhead · 06/10/2018 21:23

I applaud your ovaries of steel! Next time you’re out I’ll make it my mission to come support you as a fellow Cantabrigian.

Socrates11 · 06/10/2018 20:53

Really nice to meet you today Magpie, glad it went well and kudos for sticking at it in the cold, wind and rain.

I've messaged ukcamstudent.

Here's to the next real life encounter Grin

NopeNi · 06/10/2018 18:58

Maniac, you're amazing. I mean that, I am reading in awe that you'd be that brave. Well done Thanks

maniacmagpie · 06/10/2018 18:39

Heyhey duckies,

I am now as cold in my body as I am in my heart. Good grief. Today was very interesting. I talked to quite a few people, and again got quite a lot of people acknowledging me and giving the thumbs up. Got a few handshakes too.

I had a relatively long conversation with a woman who was still of the opinion that Get The L Out is a hate group (I suggested she have a look at the cotton ceiling stuff, but of course acknowledged that neither of us has a total view of what's going on), but overall we had a very respectful conversation about the reality of SRS and how it's really not fair to tell people that we have the medical science to change biological sex completely. I think our primary disagreement was who suffers more grief between lesbians and trans people, and we agreed that we could have a perfectly civil discussion using words that describe reality, without jumping on the other.

One group I got weird vibes from - we were talking a little and then they wandered off but I thought maybe they had somewhere to be. I think it was when I got to the point where I said 'medical science isn't good enough yet to change us completely over, so a transman is still biologically female but that isn't saying that I don't want them to live the best way for themselves'. I think maybe they agreed that it was a perfectly respectful thing to say and that I wasn't attacking anyone by saying that? I think someone yelled back 'yeah it's not hate speech'.

I had one guy walk past and say nothing but "prick".

I had one couple who gave me the full bingo: when I talked about how it was female people who were barred from Cambridge back in the day, they said that transwomen couldn't go to Cambridge either, then when I said but the world saw them as male so they would have been able to even if they didn't feel so inside they just said that male and female isn't real, it's a construct because intersex, the lot. When I asked if they could look me in the eye and say that they didn't know which one of their parents impregnated the other - however they identified and whether or not they are trans - they yelled at me some more, then walked away saying I was pathetic for spending my time on this. I mean at no point did I say transwomen weren't women now, just that they could have got away with it when Cambridge didn't want female women around distracting the serious menfolk. Somehow that wasn't enough.

A few older gentlemen talked to me about how it's ridiculous that in order to be a correctly thinking person it's about simply saying the correct things - very stimulating conversation. I did also have some great discussions about how hypocritical this whole mess is - we hear regularly that women are too dumb for science (see CERN dude in news recently - Prof. Alessandro Strumia), and then we get yelled at by people who think we're bigots for saying that he probably aimed that comment at female people rather than self-identifying women. Somehow the idea that any other group might have any problems ever passes them by.

Gawdess knows I defend women in STEM on a regular basis without resorting to name-calling. I won't deny that I get tired and angry sometimes, but come on. I can articulately argue that I think someone is wrong without yelling at them most of the time, I really can, and I can take a step back and own up to when I do go too far and apologise for mistakes I make.

Well oof. Eventful day. TTYL, gals.

OP posts:
ChoccyJules · 06/10/2018 16:33

I couldn’t see you today, about 2.30pm, though it was pouring and I turned off just before King’s so didn’t walk all the way past. Hope your pink hat didn’t get soggy!

maniacmagpie · 06/10/2018 11:20

Yo gals,

I've been working on a summary of what the GRA consultation document and Stonewall are saying in their own words, which you can find at

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3386223-Self-ID-process-details-anyone-know

I have to say that at the time of the original post I had only just begun to reach out and was not aware of the exact content - I still thought that it was the (lack of) conversation that was the primary problem and didn't think what was being asked for could possibly be no checks at all, but realising that they really do seem to be pushing for self-ID made my blood run absolutely cold. I'd love suggestions for how/where else to spread the summary and it would be great if someone could help me put some time into formatting and check over that I haven't missed anything massive, that my cuts for brevity are reasonable, suggestions for how to make this more clear etc.

I have so far made a one-page PDF thing of the GRA reform consultation (relevant passages) and include the word online version so you can edit it/make it better and stuff. I'll be doing the same for the summaries on the linked thread too.

drive.google.com/open?id=1G2umQtLSxHUv1J6H3v2GebqFumIFOQw0

OP posts:
AnchorMum · 05/10/2018 20:52

Just have to say I greatly admire you for doing this. I hope your courageous actions gather pace and that you find yourself surrounded and supported by many likeminded others.

Good luck tomorrow and I look forward to hearing how you get on.

maniacmagpie · 05/10/2018 18:44

Oh ratbags. That's not going to help at all. Thanks for the heads up, I'll tape the sign over with some cling film.

OP posts:
Socrates11 · 05/10/2018 18:28

It's supposed to pour down all day so take a brolly! Wink

ChoccyJules · 05/10/2018 17:40

I may be passing and if so will say hi Smile go you!

Xenia · 05/10/2018 17:36

It's a good post. We need the universities to allow free thought and postings even of comments with which we disagree from all kinds of different people and if people need safe spaces perhaps they are not really robust enough to attend university at all.

maniacmagpie · 05/10/2018 17:23

I want to bump ukcamstudent's message - I've had a few private messages from people who might be more interested in group activism.

"Hi all,

I'm a gender critical PhD student at Cambridge. I've messaged the two users who posted above to say they were/will be students.

If any other Cambridge students see this page, please send me a private message. We've got big plans for the soon-to-start academic year and it would be great to get as many people involved as possible from the get go."

Do drop a line her way if you are in Cambridge if you're interested. I am by no means saying don't come to talk to me though!

Saturday 2pm to 5pm is still on, let's see what happens now that the students are back. Toodle-oo.

Magpie

OP posts:
maniacmagpie · 04/10/2018 10:39

Oh one thing I somehow didn't point out in all this, which was pointed out to me - there are usually other protesters on King's Parade and apparently some people couldn't find me.

I am wearing a pink PUSSY hat, and usually the rest of me is all in black or grey (I don't have an imaginative wardrobe). As stated above I made the sign bigger too. I must admit that the first time round I didn't quite have the eggs to be louder than I was.

OP posts:
maniacmagpie · 04/10/2018 10:22

Bumping the thread - still planning on Saturday 2pm to 5pm again, outside King's College. The sign is bigger, the hat is just as pink, and I am just as quaking in my (trainers) as ever.

I'll admit to having had nightmares about people putting up 'die cis scum' banners around my home, with the comic timing of being over the same night as the doxxing of Posie Parker (I haven't got much to say on that that hasn't already been said. Best wishes to her and just absolute scorn to the person who did it and for anyone who thinks that's a reasonable response to her statements. Even if someone thinks she's completely wrong they should be able to form a coherent counterargument without threatening her children!).

I'm absolutely not saying what I felt was the same thing, just that I'm mentally a little shook. But come on, really? I defend myself over who I am (who I materially and physically am, as in biologically female) on a daily basis. I won't deny it's tiring and stupid but I try to avoid attacking the person even when they're treating me like I'm idiot pond scum.

No ideology is immune to criticism and the assertion that any criticism is akin to an attack on people's rights and a call to hatred is frankly absurd. The fear tactics are ridiculous, particularly when juxtaposed with the common declaration that people with gender critical views want to deny people who call themselves trans basic rights or wish violence on them.

Modern gender ideology is just that - an ideology. It frustrates me no end that activists are using simultaneously the tactic of holding up the 'person who is born in the wrong body' and appealing to medical science to explain it whilst simultaneously rejecting medical gatekeeping as an affront to their dignity. It is one of the most bizarre things I've ever seen.

I personally can feel some sympathy for the 'born in the wrong body' view but I don't think that medical intervention, whether you believe it necessary or not, can change the sex. We do not tell a person who is born without fingers that the toes we graft onto their hands to increase their quality of life are exactly the same thing as fingers. We have made the intervention to increase their quality of life. That doesn't mean they weren't ever missing fingers. To me, the 'medical fixing of something gone wrong' is a non-argument for self-identification of gender trumping sex as a descriptor of who someone is.

I understand that many here don't view the 'born in the wrong body' picture favourably, but I'm not saying I necessarily agree with the picture - just saying that people should feel able to argue against gender ideology without getting wrapped up in a debate about dysphoria. I mean to say that perhaps people could find it useful as a starting point with others who worry deeply about offending a vulnerable minority. For some, if you dive straight to someone like Bunce they shut down with a No True Scotsman argument. Some people need to be led in baby steps ;)

Some are definitely receptive to the shock approach, but my personal experience is that a huge amount of cognitive dissonance can build up when sympathy is in play. I remember for myself some of the absolute bollocks I've put up with in the name of sympathy. People can really, really tolerate a lot - just look at all the lesbian women worrying about 'how to make myself be attracted to a penis'. I feel so so sorry for them - but that's the level that sympathy can push people to.

Come say hi if you like, or not if you don't feel in a position to do so. Photos welcomed (I apologise for the fact that it would have my face in it. That's enough to ruin any picture). Use me as a starting point for conversations with people who you think might be on the fence. I just want people to know we are out here, and we are resisting. We know it isn't wrong to speak up.

Magpie

OP posts:
maniacmagpie · 30/09/2018 18:46

To Lefthanddown:

"Was it predominantly men who approached you or women, or was there no clear distinction?"

I spoke to more men than women, but I had one-on-one conversations with very few people so would treat the split as a small sample size. They were primarily older people, but also some student age people.

The solidarity nods were generally from young people - students, and roughly evenly split between men and women. I didn't keep count.

To Socrates11 - yes, I'm planning a similar time next Saturday. I'll finalise the time slot here when I've sorted out my week, there are a few people on the thread who similarly weren't able to make it this Saturday who want to chat.

Magpie

OP posts:
Socrates11 · 30/09/2018 08:09

Hi maniacmagpie glad you had a positive experience first time out. I'll be in Cambridge next Saturday for a couple of hours... do you think you will do roughly the same hours/place again? I will come and have a chat if that's the case.

Lefthanddown · 29/09/2018 20:18

I admire your gumption, I know I couldn't do it without back up.

I'm glad it went well for you and you didn't face any hostility.

Was it predominantly men who approached you or women, or was there no clear distinction?