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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Cowardice

37 replies

SusanBunch · 23/09/2018 17:43

Just saw this from Julie Bindel. I am a great admirer of her BUT I wonder if this is not a bit unfair. Julie has a huge media profile. She is self-employed and I would guess she is not hard-up. I just can’t understand why, after seeing the abuse women get for speaking out, she chooses to blame/attack those who are scared of doing so.

If I said what I truly thought, I could lose my job. Who would help me then? The answer is, nobody would. Many of the prominent pro-trans voices in my sector have active power to make life and career opportunities difficult for me. Should I be expected to make that sacrifice?

I am not saying there is a right or wrong answer here. I can see Julie’s point. I am also struggling with feeling guilt at not doing enough to help this cause.

How do others feel?

Cowardice
OP posts:
Barracker · 23/09/2018 18:25

Everyone can do something.
Once you understand, you have a moral obligation to do something.
Sign petitions.
See your MP.
Debate on this site.
Talk to friends.
Raise reasonable objections in the workplace.
Learn the relevant laws and use it.
Influence workplace policy.
Organise with others secretly.

Do not be part of the problem.

There's more than speaking publicly. But doing nothing, nothing at all, is cowardice.
We all have something to lose. We can't let others take the fall because we think our losses are worse.

All it takes for bad stuff to happen is for good people to do nothing.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 23/09/2018 18:25

When you are fighting every day to keep your head above water, there’s no time for objections

Yes. I don't think it's a coincidence that this attack on women coincides with attacks on minority groups and above all the onslaught on the working classes. Privilege is reasserting itself in all directions.

OvaHere · 23/09/2018 18:21

I hope that women like Prof Stock inspire similar women to speak out. She took a lot of flak but she was supported and still promoted. Clearly she took a big risk though.

I don't stand to lose much as a SAHM (bar the potential stalking) but it also means my influence is limited. Unless of course it becomes normal to unperson all dissenters relatives too. Nothing would surprise me anymore.

BlardyBlar · 23/09/2018 18:14

I think people are frightened. I look at the jobs available to school leavers now and compare them to those around when I left school. Now there are jobs, but they all seem astonishingly precarious, often with no sick pay or holiday pay. Few of them seem to have any permanence. When I left school, lots of people went straight into permanent safe positions.

When you are fighting every day to keep your head above water, there’s no time for objections. When you know there are no laws to protect you and no union to back you up, then you’re much more likely to keep your mouth shut and your head down.

FloralBunting · 23/09/2018 18:13

I really understand the frustration she is expressing there, because it is really bloody hard to be a visible target for so long, and having people tell you they support you privately, but they can't say anything themselves is such an added extra pressure.

Imagine it, there you are, lone voice against a sea of verbal abuse and threats, and you know lots of people agree with you, but they just won't speak up with you. I think it must make the hard stuff even worse.

I genuinely understand that there are reasons to be circumspect. We can all do something and no one should belittle anyone's efforts. But I do caution people about the wisdom of telling someone you support them but you can't do so openly. It's massively discouraging.

scepticalwoman · 23/09/2018 18:11

It's harsh but she's right.
Given the doxxing, the threats, intimidation, bullying, direct threats to people's jobs I am not surprised that so many women are frightened and keep silent. It's logical and understandable.
But women are starting to speak out in greater numbers and it is incredibly liberating now we are actively breaking the silence. As #nodebate is increasingly ridiculed and the violence, bomb threats and masked men have just added to the public's disdain for those using these tactics, it IS becoming more safe. However, our first priority is to ensure our own and our family's safety. The TRAs care nothing for women's safety so we must prioritise it - even when others find it frustrating.

gendercritter · 23/09/2018 18:08

I think it's infuriating because if everyone spoke out these MRA's would lose a lot of their power. We could get it shut down much more quickly.

But people face real repercussions for speaking out and it is completely fair enough that many are too scared to do so.

I am too scared to do so. I've just had to do what I can which means posting a lot on here, donating to campaigns and speaking quietly to friends who I think would get it, to spread the word where I can.

CrackpotsArePots · 23/09/2018 18:07

She's allowed to be angry, she's allowed to get people's back up, IMO. She's allowed to be wrong

CrackpotsArePots · 23/09/2018 18:06

I disagree with her but I admire her hugely because she is brave. This is no time for arguing amongst ourselves. Our time is now. We can all do something. Being on here, if you do nothing else is something, because you give courage to others. Filling out the GRA Consultation, sticking up some stickers, talking to other people about it in person, going to meetings

We can all do something

deepwatersolo · 23/09/2018 18:04

But what has happened with Western societies, that citizens are so cowed? This is not just the trans issue and not just the UK. This phaenomenon spread far and wide that stuff that was open to robust discussion 20 years back is unspeakable now. What the f* happened?

arranfan · 23/09/2018 17:58

I can't imagine a woman in Credit Suisse who wasn't in full-throated support of Bunce would be able to keep her job without an HR reprimand.

In fact, given that so many people are hoping for promotion, and so many politicians are looking at retirement plans that involve non-executive directorships of large institutions with equalities policies that are similar to Credit Suisse's - I can't see them supporting women instead.

OvaHere · 23/09/2018 17:54

She has a point but it is also unfair. If everyone had spoken out en mass a few years back it would have helped enormously.

That makes the assumption though that most people understood what was happening until recently and let's face it many people still don't.

It's harsh to not examine the reasons that ordinary women (as opposed to career feminists) don't speak out. You only have to look at other totalitarian regimes in history to see how this happens.

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