Girlguiding expels leaders who question trans policy

The web page dates from 2017 with a change this year (but not major).

Starkstaring It's hard to know. Their policy on transgender and gender reassignment says: "We understand that if a young member is transitioning from female to male that they will be experiencing a great amount of change and uncertainty. Flexibility and the Leaders’ discretion in conversation with the parents must be used to determine how long the child stays within the unit."

Which I think is deliberately vague because of course if they allow girls who identify as males to remain, it conflicts directly with this part of the policy:

"Girlguiding aims to support all girls and young women. This is understood in terms of the way a person self-identifies their gender identity - a person’s inner sense of self."

www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/policies/girlguiding-policies/equality-and-diversity-policy/transgender-gender-reassignment/

I don't believe that Guide leaders nor Guides themselves would want to see confused gender non-conforming young females have to leave the orgnanisation but they have rather shot themselves in the foot when they say that identifying as a girl or young woman is what is important. I'd ask for clarification about your child, in writing, and watch them tie themselves up in knots trying to answer.

Guardian piece has 10 paras and title all on the guides' point of view and three tucked at the end on the parents and leaders, with guides having the final word.

It is far from balanced.

Great email angel.

Just as an aside. I have a young adult autistic daughter who identifies as male. She was in Senior Section before she came to this conclusion. The leader of that unit, and all the members, continue to welcome her warmly to guiding events, and she is really happy to go to them. I assume this is now against official policy.

In response to your email that you sent out yesterday regarding 'Our response to the media attention to our Equality and Diversity policy', I am writing to express my disappointment and upset about these events.

That two members have been removed from GG as a result of raising Safeguarding concerns is abhorrent.

Your introduction of the policy without consulting parents is disgusting. You have managed to consult male-bodied people who have no GG experience, but not the girls at GG and their parents. This is not a full or complete consultation. This does not constitute an experienced, specialist and balanced consultation.

Allowing biological males, regardless of how they identify, into what has always been a female-only organisation removes the female-only space that many generations of girl-guiding has provided. Doing so without changing your status to mixed-sex and allowing for appropriate safeguards puts girls at risk, and removes parents' autonomy to remove their children from such situations, by mis-informing them.

You have obliterated GG as a safe-space that girls need to access for many reasons.Single (biological) sex space does not only guard against physical/sexual abuse from males. This isn't about a trans-person being any more likely than anyone else to be a threat, I KNOW THEY ARE NOT. It is about people who ARE a threat using the access allowed under this policy to gain access to girls and women, where previously they could not.

Girls need space that is reserved for biological girls for many reasons, including religion, privacy and dignity. GG are currently campaigning to end period poverty, can you not see that a biological male with a penis sharing space with biological girls could be intimidating, embarrassing, stigmatising and distressing for girls?

Laughably, the changes you have made are the opposite of trans-inclusionary, in so much as you will now admit biological boys and men (who identify as female) but EXCLUDE biological girls (who identify as male). You have been unable to define the term girl. You also seem to be using phrases like 'young person' instead of girls, which should surely be unnecessary for a single-sex organisation?

Finally, it was not necessary for you to do this under any law in this country. You were well within your rights to maintain your current policy for the safety and well being of the girls in your care. But men have demanded access to a female-only space, and you have granted it to them. How shameful for an organisation that should be about empowering girls.

With this, you have removed the ability of Girlguiding to safeguard my daughter and I will be withdrawing her membership.

Thank you nicenewdusters.

I am about to send this email.

I have also emailed the unit leader to ask when the policy comes into force (mostly to open a dialogue with her).

My daughter will be very upset that she has to leave Rainbows.

Maybe we should stop using the phrase trans girls, but instead boys who now identify as a girl.
I always use this as all other phrases are confusing to the 90% of the population who don't think this is an issue.

Positively, one needs to add that their first statement said, no individuals whatsoever consulted with them, only groups. That just means, they could have consulted with Aimee challenor&co, but in their function as representative of a group.

Maybe we should stop using the phrase trans girls, but instead boys who now identify as a girl.

At this age, in what way are they transitioning? Self id, name change, hair cut and more masculine clothes - that's all I've personally observed so far. We also know around 80% of these boys will identify with their natal sex once through puberty. Why should we use the TRA language?

angeltattoo

I think that's an excellent email. Maybe add that a single sex space doesn't only safe guard girls against the risk of physical/sexual abuse by males, but provides dignity and privacy. You could mention the current GG campaign to end period poverty and the stigma around periods. How will the GG ensure a girls privacy and dignity when discussing this subject alongside boys who are there because they identify as a girl?

Would it be worth asking who advised them do you think?

They’ve already given a convoluted answer, without actually saying who was involved. Talk about groups and saying the creepy individuals did not directly consult with them. 🤥 In other words, they may have been involved in the group advising the GGs, but since they didn’t speak directly to them, they’re not going to admit that. 🙄

Used to identify as male - are they saying males that now say they are women were only pretending to be boys all along? Their willy didn't give it away?

The guardian has finally lost the plot.

None of it mentions the showering and sleeping. They will all just assume it's like scouts and mixed

Why won't they tell the trutg

This from the Guardian piece -

"The policy says leaders are not allowed to tell girls or their parents if another girl or leader in their unit used to identify as male.'

So used to 'identify as male' now is it? They've shifted it from currently IDing as female/girl/woman whatever to the TRA stance that they were female/girl/woman all along, just IDing as male but are now their authentic self. Am I the only one reading it this way?

In the guardian now too
And it's a fairly balanced piece

amp.theguardian.com/society/2018/sep/26/girlguiding-defends-transgender-policy-after-criticism?__twitter_impression=true

Would it be worth asking who advised them do you think?

I can't believe part time cross dressers extreme porn advocates domestic violence apologists and nappy wearing furries and paedo cross dressers are seriously being listened too

How does this email look? There is an intro at he top missing, but this is the body of it.

Any mistakes you can see, or anything I can add?

Thanks

Agree Zeugma
Other misconceptions are that
-all trans people have ‘sex change operations’
-that pre transition they were adult gay males so are not heterosexual
-and that in the case of the Guides-
-if you are a GIRL with the temerity to be gender non conforming, confused, or not feminine identifying enough, you’ll be managed OUT of the Girl Guides.

Not looking so inclusive now eh Girl Guides UK?

Most people have no idea what the ‘trans’ umbrella extends to cover these days.

It includes: Bearded intact men who make no change - medical, surgical, cosmetic, clothes, nothing. Any man who feels like claiming trans status can do so. This would include a man motivated do that because he knows it gets him access to girls and women.

Like in female prisons,(recent convictions for sexual assaults in women’s prisons show this), women’s wards in hospitals and now.. the Girl Guides.

Famous for taking girls on camp away for a brilliant time.. away from parental supervision.

Girl Guiding UK’s policy is an open invitation to any male person who wants access to girls and women. There are a lot of those.

Safeguarding is essential for safety, dignity, privacy and trust and especially with anyone who works with children. Safeguarding applies to EVERYONE. It is not transphobic to insist on this.

Men and boys, do not get to bunk in with girls however those males happen to identify. That’s what proper safeguarding looks like.

Hopefully more parents will see the BBC article on this today, go to the GGUK Twitter account to get it from them, then see the Fair Play for Women tweets that point out all the problems with this Girl Guiding policy.
Which was introduced without consultation with parents, the volunteers who run Guides, or any women’s groups.

Weird how ‘diversity’ in the strangely man- pleasing Girl Guiding Trustees and executive team’s world, seems to only mean centring male people?

What about the girls Guides and their parents? What about women who as volunteers actually run Guiding groups day in and day out? They have been asking questions and being fobbed off by GGUK for months.

What? How come this has only just come to light?

Bold fail.

Datun Julie Bentley, GG CEO, is best mates with Simon Blake, who's on the Stonewall trans-advisory committee, with Aimee Challoner, whose nappy fetish is plastered all over Twitter. And isnt Blake in a highly paid position in the NUS (head?) where Jess Bradley was getting her cock out in public encouraging minors to do the same and having cartoons of Ben 10 being anally raped on their website.

Datun I felt this needed reposting lest it got lost among all the other posts.

Who the fuck is pulling all the strings?
Julie Bentley, GG CEO, is best mates with Simon Blake, who's on the Stonewall trans-advisory committee, with Aimee Challoner, whose nappy fetish is plastered all over Twitter. And isnt Blake in a highly paid position in the NUS (head?) where Jess Bradley was getting her cock out in public encouraging minors to do the same and having cartoons of Ben 10 being anally raped on their website.

Why isn't the press reporting on this shit show of entitled men and their perv mates being around the advising of the girl guides policy that allows boys in the tents with girls and parents not to know.

Why indeed. I like to hope that behind the scenes there is an investigative journalist putting all the pieces together to one day be exposed on Panorama - but I realise that is more likely a fantasy.

I think Gentlygently makes a very good point.

The vast majority of parents/people coming to this whole mindfuck completely cold are highly likely to read ‘transgirl’ and think it = girl. Because ‘GIRL Guides’. It just won’t dawn on them that these ‘girls’ are adolescent boys with fully-intact penises. Because, frankly, why would it? Susie Green et al are being given lavish airtime in which to repeat the mantra, ad nauseam, that all transgirls are girls. It would be easy to get the impression that they actually are girls because the alternative is frankly barking and who would believe that?

I feel, like Gentlygently, that this needs to be hammered home until the newcomers grasp this absolutely fundamental point.

The issue is the sheer numbers of children in this situation. Believing that they in the wrong body?

If there are so many more girl to boy kids - where are they? Who is squeaking loudly on their behalf?

They say they have spoken to parents of trans kids, but have they spoken to parents of girls. Do they actually understand the psyche of girls going through puberty and dealing with their changing bodies and how all-encompassing that can be for some of them? I have 2 DDs and without any prompting from me, they say they do not want to do swimming classes at school with boys because they don't want to be seen in their swimsuit by all the boys in their class. They do not want to use the unisex toilet that has been created (thankfully only 2 cubicles) They do not want to go on the residential school trip if they have their period, because it is heavy and they will need to change a pad at some point during the day when they might be miles from toilets. She does not want her male teacher to have to know these details about her so that she can be accommodated. When you live with dds and you open your ears, you remember how prevalent these feelings are when going through puberty.

Hi BBC!
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45642054

You recently had some incredibly serious issues with safeguarding. This should tell you the lengths men will go to to access children.

So this is really not good for you to be minimising the shit out of women’s evidenced concerns about secretive mixed sex accommodation of girls on Guide residentials bunking in with boys and men.

Why are women not allowed to protest the loss of single sex spaces and services, which are important to many girls and women to allow them to take part in these activities at all. (and There is the Scouts which is mixed sex already!)

Why BBC, do you not also have a quote from a women’s organisation like Fair Play for Women? Since Mermaids get a quote that misrepresents women’s concerns?

What’s the evidence for transing a male people magically removing the typical male pattern of sexual offending from them? NONE.

So why do girls have to be forced to share accommodation (deliberately concealing this from parental consent as per Guides Policy!) with male bodied people- just because those people feel they are also girls? Even if those same people are actually Male grown ups?

This is the reality of gender self ID.
Trans male bodied people are no LESS risk than ANYONE ELSE WITH A MALE BODY that we already WOULDN'T put our daughters in with. How do GGUK not get this.

And no this is NOT what the equality Act 2010 says. It gives single sex exemptions for exactly this kind of scenario. It’s GG UK who DON’T WANT TO apply them.

Now why would that be?