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Original poster

Girlguiding expels leaders who question trans policy

770 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 23/09/2018 01:04

Well, I guess I knew this was coming. Dissent will not be tolerated. Forget the safety concerns, the privacy and dignity issues, the managing out of gender non-confirming girls. What's really serious is one leader referring to another leader "a nightmare" in a private conversation.

Girl Guide leaders expelled for questioning trans policy

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/34139ed0-bea5-11e8-8d21-451ec1df6b83

Two Guide leaders who had raised safeguarding concerns about the organisation’s transgender policy have been expelled and had their units closed down.

Dozens of children face disappointment because there is no one else to run the units. The expelled leaders say they will take legal action against Girlguiding if their removals are upheld.

Helen Watts, one of 12 leaders who signed a letter to The Sunday Times in April asking for a review of the policy, was told on Friday that her membership was being terminated after more than 15 years with the Guides.

At least one other signatory, based in the northwest of England, was expelled. Documents seen by The Sunday Times suggest disciplinary investigations have been launched against at least five Guide leaders.

[Edited by MNHQ to remove copyright materiel]

OP posts:
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DuggeesWoggle · 27/09/2018 07:55

I suspect the TRAs they consult with will be pushing for a rebrand as 'Guides' anyway so as to get rid of that pesky word 'girl'and all its troublesome connotations.

DuggeesWoggle · 27/09/2018 07:53

That's amazing, well done Lucy for finally giving the parents a voice and spelling out exactly what the policy means. GG have got themselves in such a mess. If they reaffirm that they are single sex they will be branded transphobic, if they stick to it they will have no credibility as 'Girl' Guides and will have to change to just being a mixed sex 'Guides' who will offer pursuits such as flower arranging, make up application and how to dress to attract boys while the Scouts will do the camp fire building, assault courses and other 'manly' things.

The whole thing is such a sorry mess. When you play fast and loose with biological definitions this is the end result.

IceRebel · 27/09/2018 07:52

Mad not made

IceRebel · 27/09/2018 07:52

The irony in this statement

“Girlguiding is for girls and therefore we expect a young person who identifies as male wouldn’t look to join,” the charity said.

Identifies as male (so technically still a girl) - Obviously wouldn't want to join

Has male genitalia and was born male - Of course they'd want to join and we welcome them.

The world has gone made [grr]

AngryAttackKittens · 27/09/2018 07:47

If anyone needs popcorn I'll be over here with the bowl!

Who knew the Guides would be the domino we needed to knock all the others down?

DuggeesWoggle · 27/09/2018 07:32

I couldn't see the whole article miri (anyone got a pay token) but wow it's got a pretty scathing start! Well done Lucy Bannerman for saying it like it is!

WomenMakePurchasingDecisions · 27/09/2018 01:29

‘Inclusive’, my arse.

Excluding females, including males.

This horrifies me.

miri1985 · 27/09/2018 01:07

FFS " Those who identify as male or “non-binary” will be discouraged from joining the Guides, while those who are already guides and have taken the “Promise” — the Guides’ oath of allegiance — will be asked to leave, the charity confirmed."

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0eba70ea-c1da-11e8-a932-84839f5183a4 (apologies for lack of share token)

So girls confused about their identity who could find confidence and respect for their womanhood through socialisation with other girls and women leaders will be discouraged

NoSquirrels · 27/09/2018 00:10

the principle of women's organising for women's development in women's place of safety

That's it, isn't it?

When I was a child, there was ONLY sex segregated GirlGuides and BoyScouts. You went to one or the other. It probably wasn't too progressive - hostessing and the correct order in which to wash up vs campfire building and more outdoorsy stuff. Nevertheless, it was a female only space, and very valuable.

Now there's Scouting and Guiding.

One is transparent about safeguarding. One is not.

Both are run on the goodwill of volunteers. The one that has transparent safeguarding is no longer the one that provides respite from boys. Sad

Bouledeneige · 26/09/2018 23:46

Thanks for you kind support! I will think about it - but I can see the whole bureaucracy and infrastructure and presumably trustee board are behind the policy. So they wouldn't appoint me anyway and I'd get fucking emotionally and intellectually annoyed so wouldn't get my point across.... ... It matters too much! I will think on.

Otherwise they will get some robot who just does what they think is right-on - and shit on the principle of women's organising for women's development in women's place of safety.

NoSquirrels · 26/09/2018 23:21

ImA well done. Wish you were a leader near me. I’d be SO heartened to hear your point of view.

NoSquirrels · 26/09/2018 23:18

Oh Boule PLEASE apply! The interview alone would be worth it...

IdahoJones · 26/09/2018 22:24

You are our only hope, Bouley Wan Kanobe

hiveofmumsandvillainy · 26/09/2018 21:52

Maybe they need someone to be in there who doesn't agree with it Bouledeneige...

Bouledeneige · 26/09/2018 21:36

All very depressing.

I would be interested in applying for the role of CEO of the GirlGuides ( I work as a CEO in a similar field) but I don't think I could whilst this is their policy. I just don't agree with it.

hiveofmumsandvillainy · 26/09/2018 20:16

Ima Sad I'm so sorry to read this.

Has anyone had a reply from GG yet? I emailed them straight back yesterday and have heard nothing.

ImAGuiderToo · 26/09/2018 16:28

ifonlyus I've added the links to back up what I've said, thank you. I may regret it but I think parents and their children have a right to informed consent. If it makes them look into it themselves and make an informed choice, then great. If they choose to ignore it and label me a transphobic bigot, that's also ok.

ImAGuiderToo · 26/09/2018 16:22

Hey, not posting for sympathy but thank you. If I'm honest it was such a long time ago we've kind of forgotten about it (bizarrely). Every so often one of the older dc will mention it in reaction to something else so it's not brushed under the carpet, just no longer something that affects them/us.

It was thinking about my concerns that focussed my thinking and why actually it matters to all ages, not just the older Guides. Peer on Peer sexual abuse does happen and it does happen far younger than we ever want to think it does!

Anyway, outing if anyone here is one of my parents, I've grasped the bull by its horns and written 5 points stating what my concern is and then explained why. I have been doing 'watch & wait' for months and appreciate it may never be an issue I personally have to deal with BUT it feels like a matter of principle and that actually, I cannot do nothing, I have to speak out (will I get the badge?).

Even more outing, we already do a mixed camp every year with a local Cub Pack and faced massive problems the first time we did it from county because why would we want to go camping with boys?! Shock oh the irony.

ifonlyus · 26/09/2018 16:05

Ima Really sorry to hear about what happened to your dc.

With regards to giving out more information to parents, could you send them the link I posetd above? It is from the Girlguiding website. that way you are just passing on further information. Wouldn't you jeopardise your position if you wrote something that seems to go against GG Policy? If someone approaches you with the same concerns you have, you could verbally give your views and advise the parents to air theirs with GGUK.

Equality and Diversity Policy Transgender and gender reassignment

And also this link: Make sure you include all young members - including trans people - in activities and residentials

It spells out very clearly that: their inclusion of transgender means boys identifying as girls, any adults who identify as women can become leaders, during residential trips, only the transgender child has a say in where they sleep, change and use the bathroom and they must be allowed to share with the girls if that is their choice.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 26/09/2018 15:59

I posted in our closed FB group that all parents should have received an important email. Any questions about it, please do come to us

Not the same closed guide group that Aimee Challenor is in?

Annandale · 26/09/2018 15:55

I would leave it Ima. bide your time and strategise how to deal with particular situations to protect the children in your care.

TeenTimesTwo · 26/09/2018 15:49

ImA Could you send out a clearer explanation of the letter? Since the letter from GG, some parents have asked me to clarify a couple of points: a) The policy is now that boys who identify as girls can be accepted into Girl guides. b) Furthermore when we have trips, these children must be allowed to share tents and showering facilities with the other guides. c) Parents will not be informed if a boy who identifies as a girl has joined the unit. If you have any safeguarding concerns regarding this, please let me know.

drspouse · 26/09/2018 15:37

Oh Ima so sorry to hear that.

I think a lot of people just don't get it.
They think a transgirl means a girl who identifies as a boy. They think (quite rightly) we should be welcoming them.
They may also think that a boy who identifies as a girl is so majorly different from other boys - and in particular that they are DEFINITELY both a young child and attracted to boys only. They don't know that there are any straight boys who identify as girls.
They don't think that anyone could possibly pretend to be trans.

They are thinking of their Uncle Crispin who is now Auntie Cris and lives with his/her lovely partner Freddie.

Do the parents know about your children?
Could you drop a hint e.g. "due to my personal knowledge of abuse by children against children I don't feel I can keep your girls safe in a multi-unit setting so I won't be taking girls on joint residentials any more"??

ImAGuiderToo · 26/09/2018 15:07

I posted in our closed FB group that all parents should have received an important email. Any questions about it, please do come to us.

I've had one email from one parent saying they think the email from GGUK is good.

So should I be raising what my concerns are as a Guider?

I am a Brownie Guider so it's girls aged 7-10 which is why I wonder if perhaps it's not seen as a bigger deal?

Ignores that 3/4 of her own dc were sexually assaulted at ages 4, 8 and 10 by other children aged 9 and 11...

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