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Girlguiding expels leaders who question trans policy

770 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 23/09/2018 01:04

Well, I guess I knew this was coming. Dissent will not be tolerated. Forget the safety concerns, the privacy and dignity issues, the managing out of gender non-confirming girls. What's really serious is one leader referring to another leader "a nightmare" in a private conversation.

Girl Guide leaders expelled for questioning trans policy

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/34139ed0-bea5-11e8-8d21-451ec1df6b83

Two Guide leaders who had raised safeguarding concerns about the organisation’s transgender policy have been expelled and had their units closed down.

Dozens of children face disappointment because there is no one else to run the units. The expelled leaders say they will take legal action against Girlguiding if their removals are upheld.

Helen Watts, one of 12 leaders who signed a letter to The Sunday Times in April asking for a review of the policy, was told on Friday that her membership was being terminated after more than 15 years with the Guides.

At least one other signatory, based in the northwest of England, was expelled. Documents seen by The Sunday Times suggest disciplinary investigations have been launched against at least five Guide leaders.

[Edited by MNHQ to remove copyright materiel]

OP posts:
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NoSquirrels · 30/09/2018 19:16

That doesn't make sense, does it, Swift? What are they on about?

Their 'girl only' offer (i.e. to exclude boys) is permitted under the EA2010, yes. But now they are admitting boys... that's the problem!

SwiftNC · 30/09/2018 19:00

Latest BS from GG twitter

"Sex isn’t listed as a protected characteristic because our 'girl only' offer is permitted as a positive action under the Equality Act 2010. We’re permitted to only allow girls to join as young members and some leadership positions are only open to women members."

Anyone got any clue WTF that even means? 🤔

drspouse · 28/09/2018 16:53

So they are implying that something derogatory was said. I wonder if that's actionable?

Jenijena · 28/09/2018 16:30

No @drspouse they hadn’t. But they had jumped to conclusions based on 0 evidence...

drspouse · 28/09/2018 14:35

jeninena had they seen what Agnes and the other leader said? Because GG haven't made it public AFAIK. So are they saying they have read GG private correspondence and are now reporting it?
Maybe libel against Agnes??

AgnesBadenPowell · 28/09/2018 13:07

That's interesting about any questions. I'll have to call any answers on Saturday!

Sky News have a programme called The Pledge, which is a panel debate on topical issues. Girlguides will be discussed there too but not sure when it's on.

OP posts:
Jenijena · 28/09/2018 12:55

There was a conversation on one of the big scout Facebook groups yesterday when I attempted to say “but, this is the problem”. Apparently I “should have seen” what the two guide leaders in question had to say about trans people. Thus cutting down conservation about safeguarding, changing policies, and general “stuff” to rumour and hysteria (which I don’t believe).

JaneR0chester · 28/09/2018 12:55

Any Questions was trailed this morning, to include discussion on Guides and this issue. Dimbleby mentioned the firing of a GG leader. Radio 4, 8pm (repeated Sat lunchtime with a public phone in, Any Answers).

drspouse · 28/09/2018 12:52

Scouts isn't a single sex space and hasn't been for ages. And they have decent safeguarding guidelines. So they can rant all they want but it's not applicable.

MrsFionaCharming · 28/09/2018 12:28

Ok, there’s literally no point in trying to explain why it matters when the only argument you get back is “but transwomen are women”.

MrsFionaCharming · 28/09/2018 10:48

Discussion on the topic is banned on the GirlGuiding Facebook groups, but the Scout ones are full of it! Trying very hard not to get pulled into an argument.

LangCleg · 28/09/2018 10:01

Guides: Oh, stop asking us logical questions. We were just doing what the men told us to do.

Bingo!

Chocolala · 28/09/2018 09:29

Does anyone have screenshots of the ‘guidelines around disclosure’ from before this got heated? I think they changed a bit but can’t recall the old wording.

ifonlyus · 28/09/2018 09:05

The comments I see in Twitter against the GG statement and defenders of the trans policy, are no longer dominated by people who have XX or Gender Critical in their Twitter bio. The comments are coming from all kinds of people, different ages and sexes and job types. Dads are annoyed, grandparents are annoyed, ex-guiders are annoyed, Guide leaders are annoyed, trefoil guides are annoyed – the general public who understand logic and are wondering how an organisation can have its cake and eat it.

Plus – intelligent people can see the irony of an organisation saying ‘we’re here for girls to break down gender stereotypes and show girls can do anything they want to’ whilst admitting boys who are being defined as girls on the basis of gender stereotypes which hold (natal) girls back in life.

This is not a personal attack on individual boys who have gender dysphoria. This is a matter of logic and principle. Due to this GG fiasco, many more people have had this brought to their attention.

And unlike school, Guides is not compulsory, or even a rite of passage all girls go through. It’s a club that some choose and denying that choice to a boy with gender dysphoria is not denying them the opportunity to join such a club, since there are other mixed-sex organisations doing the same thing, which plenty of girls also join. The Guides were within their rights to say no.

Guides had to fight to remain a single sex organisation after the Scouts took girls.It’s now made a mockery of that fight by wanting single-sex status and single-gender status.

I’m imagining a conversation like the one below.

Parent: Is Guides all girls?
Guides: Yes
Parent: Why is there a boy permitted?
Guides: That’s a girl.
Parent: But they have a boy’s body
Guides: They identify as a girl
Parent: Why does that matter?
Guides: Identity is more important than biology. We take anyone who identifies as a girl
Parent: So, my daughter who is confused about their gender and dressing as a boy, using a boys name will have to leave Guides?
Guides: Yes. No. Yes. No. We didn’t say that. We updated out policy this morning. Girls who identify as boys can stay
Parents: So, you’re a single-gender-identity-organisation AND a single-sex-organisation simultaneously?
Guides: Oh, stop asking us logical questions. We were just doing what the men told us to do.

IdahoJones · 27/09/2018 20:38

Not getting adequate legal advice over safeguarding is surely a dereliction of duty?

OldCrone · 27/09/2018 19:54

I'm really surprised that the GG haven't had better legal advice. I don't think they can legally be a single 'gender identity' organisation.

Did GG actually have any legal advice? They had advice from Gendered Intelligence, which is a genderist pressure group, but it's not clear if they had any real legal advice.

ChattyLion · 27/09/2018 19:25

‘They couldn’t organise a Brownies’ outing’ has never seemed more apt.

Beamur · 27/09/2018 18:51

Having received the mass email sent out, I replied today. I have asked if they are single gender/mixed sex or single sex/gender irrelevant (as they used to be). TBH I'm not optimistic of a reply.
I think what saddens me is that Guides is actually (done well) a fantastic place for girls and I think this episode will tarnish that safe, friendly image it has deserved for so long. They have been poorly advised.

titchy · 27/09/2018 17:52

I don't do Twitter - can someone ask them whether they are now single sex or single gender in the light of their recent clarification? And maybe RT (is that the right thing) the EHRC to see if they allow them to admit both sexes and both (all?) genders?

R0wantrees · 27/09/2018 17:17

So, Guides - which is it? Are you a single sex or a single "gender identity" organisation? Because you can't be both. The law says so.

I'm really surprised that the GG haven't had better legal advice. I don't think they can legally be a single 'gender identity' organisation.

However much it was anticipated by some human rights lawyers, third sector trans activist organisations, academics, equality and diversity experts and members of the trans, non-binary and queer community the Equalities Act 2010 remains in place. Sex and gender reassignment are two of the nine protected characteristics.

James Kirkup:
"Some facts about the events that preceded the Government statement here that the coming consultation on the Gender Recognition Act will be narrowly drawn and not affect the Equality Act’s single sex exemptions.
I offer these facts because some are claiming “there was never any question of removing/amending EA exceptions.” Those claims are either mistaken or dishonest.
August 2015
Stonewall submission to the Women & Equalities Select Committee says MPs should amend the EA to
“remove exemptions, such as access to single-sex spaces” (continues with further evidence)
threadreaderapp.com/thread/1004635839480164352.html?refreshed=yes

Even Cambridge City Council have now corrected their policies in line with the law.
Sarah Brown & Zoe O'Connell (LibDem LGBT+)"disappointed" & "worried"
www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/transgender-toilet-row-claims-city-15199314

breastfeedingclownfish · 27/09/2018 17:08

This paper was published by the Scottish Government regarding bullying in Scottish schools. It is grim reading.

dera.ioe.ac.uk/29835/1/EHRiC_5th_Report_2017_SP_Paper_185_Redacted.pdf

The section on sexual harrassment includes quotes from Girlguiding Scotland:

"Also worryingly, we heard of instances of sexual harassment directed at female students by male members of teaching staff. Girlguiding Scotland Youth Worker Susie McGuinness from Glasgow told us:

Girlguiding Scotland referred to the results of their 2014 Girls’ Attitude Survey on the views of girls and young women across the UK. This highlighted how widespread the problem was with 59% of girls aged 13 to 21 stating they had faced some form of sexual harassment at school or college in the past year . One in four had seen sexually explicit pictures or videos, or pictures or videos of girls or women
that made them feel uncomfortable. 22% of girls aged 7 to 12 had experienced jokes of a sexual nature from boys at school.

We encourage everyone who reads this report to watch the short video produced by Girlguiding Scotland on the impact of sexual harassment in schools. (see below)

I sat in a classroom with a guidance teacher who watched as a boy walked around the classroom and undid girls’ bras through their shirts, and I had a teacher who put everybody’s third-year picture up on the board and commented on what the girls looked like. That was quite normal. Schools need to be much clearer with their staff and clamp down on that.
Source:
Equalities and Human Rights Committee 15 June 2017 [Draft], Susie McGuiness, contrib.
Susie McGuinness also told us of instances of teaching staff approving or encouraging male students to commit physical assault on girls—
A young person in my guides group told me about a teacher who told a boy not to be too scared about hitting a girl, because, the teacher said, “She is a bit of crazy bitch.”
That same teacher came in on the first day of school and said to my 13-year-old friend, “So, let’s see which of the girls have developed over the summer
... That sort ofthing has been reported again and again at my school, but the girls’ concerns have been dismissed. That is normal.
Source:
Equalities and Human Rights Committee 15 June 2017 [Draft], Susie McGuiness, contrib.
Other witnesses we heard from highlighted alarming behaviour by both children and teaching staff.

Rape Crisis Scotland gave an example of “where girls have reported that boys in their school have raped them or coerced them into sending an image which has subsequently been shared. In some cases this has been reported to the police or social work, but no further action taken and the boy remains in the school. In addition to the trauma of the original abuse or assault, the girls have faced bullying, with problematic attitudes being brought into play for example that girls and women often lie about rape, and that when they are raped or sexually assaulted, they are in some way responsible

Watch this video - it's horrifying. Produced by GirlGuiding Scotland

This research documents the abuse that many young people receive, including girls, LGBT people, BAME and people with disabilities. None of it is acceptable. But why are girls the ones who have to give up their spaces to boys who have gender confusion issues? Girls need space away from boys for privacy and safety. Cross dressers are included in the definition of transgender including the definition given by LGBT Youth Scotland, who were contributers to this document. Some predatory boys will self identify to access female spaces for nefarious purposes. Trans people must be provided with a safe space for their requirements and dignity but which do not trample the rights of girls.

Girls ARE NOT at the bottom of the food chain

speakingwoman · 27/09/2018 16:54

basically they take girls and anyone who identifies as trans.

there - I should help them!

Knicknackpaddyflak · 27/09/2018 16:54

Not managing out transboys is a definite step in the right direction.

seafret · 27/09/2018 16:49

GGs need to admit they have been groomed - the answer is to learn a hard lesson and use it to better look after the safety of GIRLS.

LangCleg · 27/09/2018 16:34

This is extraordinary. They actually don't know what they're doing, saying, or thinking any more.

Which is what happens when you're stupid enough to get drunk on the Kool Aid.

So, Guides - which is it? Are you a single sex or a single "gender identity" organisation? Because you can't be both. The law says so.

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