Trans passport question

I'm loving the pulling apart of ideas on this thread. Lots to think about, particularly around "social dysphoria" and "body dysphoria". Personally, I had a brief point where I hated my body when I was a teenager, mostly because I wasn't getting boobs when most of my friends were. But I've always had something that could be called "social dysphoria", where I don't "get" many of the social expectations of women or understand why others would see them as a good thing.

I would speculate that there would be more Gender Dysphoria where gender role differences are greater. But that’s just hypothesising. I can’t provide any evidence for this.

I suspect one difficulty in gathering evidence for this hypothesis is that the cultures with the most rigidly defined gender roles are also ones where homosexuality is very discouraged (at best) or outright illegal, because of the overlap with conservative religions. So we see a relatively high number of transwomen in Iran because they would be executed for being gay men, whilst there are lots of vocal transmen and transwomen in the US who have a Bible thumping background.

I think that is spot on. I can understand the pain of sex dysphoria, which I understand to be the belief that your body should be that of the opposite sex, and that is quite clearly a medical condition.

Social dysphoria where you feel alienated by the expectations assigned to your sex is extremely common and those expectations need to be broken down. I feel zero affinity with women who shave, wear makeup, heels, think shopping is a leisure activity, enjoy spa days etc etc. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with those things but when younger it did make me question if I was a proper woman.

Body dysohoria and social dysphoria actually make a lot more sense than gender dysphoria.

I would say the feminist position is one of social dysphoria (obs not feminist spokesperson so only speaking for myself) which is why people hate being called cis.

tinydancer88

Thank you. That was a good question.

Thank you for taking the time to respond, it's been interesting to read.

So in answer to your original question, I think “stereotypical gender roles” exacerbate Gender Dysphoria and put more pressure on trans people to transition. But they do not create variant gender identity in people

I think I probably agree with you here, more or less. I would like to believe that a society without gender stereotypes would allow everyone to be comfortable in their own skin, but acknowledge your point that it is difficult to imagine the experience of Gender Dysphoria if you don't have it.

We really need a clear definition of what we mean by gender though. Just to stop us arguing at cross purposes all the time.

I agree.

MipMipMip

You are very welcome. Thank you for listening.

jellyfrizz

I don’t think the meaning of “gender” is very clearly defined. It’s a word that causes a lot of confusion.

Gender Dysphoria is said to take two forms, body dysphoria and social dysphoria. I’ve experienced both.

If you want to think of one as “sex dysphoria” and the other as “Gender Dysphoria”, feel free. The concepts and the understanding of them are more important than the labels we put on them.

We really need a clear definition of what we mean by gender though. Just to stop us arguing at cross purposes all the time.

Gender Identity is nothing to do with society, it is either innate or acquired before a child is around 3 years old. It's the person's own internal sense of what sex they are.

Are you saying it’s a sex identity then rather than a gender identity? I can totally understand body dysphoria. It’s the conflation of sex and gender that is confusing.

tinydancer88

If stereotypical gender roles did not exist, and there were no expectations or constraints placed on people because of assumptions linked to their biological sex, how would gender identity play out? Do you think people of one sex would still feel their gender identity 'belonged' to the other? I can't really get how they are not interlinked ideas.

That’s a good question! I can only speculate.

My own feeling is you can minimise the differences in male and female roles behaviour but never remove them completely. We have different roles in reproduction after all.

You can certainly remove the s**t around women being caring and passive while men are strong and dominant. Blue for boys, pink for girls can go in the bin too.

ButI think there would still be people with variant gender identity who experienced Gender Dysphoria. And there’d still be people so uncomfortable they’d need to transition. Because there will always be some sex differences. And unless we learn how to prevent it, some of us will always grow up with variant gender identities.

I’m guessing, I think there’d be far fewer people transitioning. If sex roles weren’t sodivergent, there wouldn’t be the level of dysphoria experienced staying in your birth sex. That’s guessing. I really don’t know.

This is the first question I’ve been asked on this thread that I haven’t seen before, and didn’t know my answer in advance. Thank you for making me Think!

I would speculate that there would be more Gender Dysphoria where gender role differences are greater. But that’s just hypothesising. I can’t provide any evidence for this.

So in answer to your original question, I think “stereotypical gender roles” exacerbate Gender Dysphoria and put more pressure on trans people to transition. But they do not create variant gender identity in people and I am still defending trans people’s right to transition. Unless you are trans, you cannot know the intensity of alienation from self and other people you feel because of the difference between your gender identity and your body. It’s not just about Gender Dysphoria.

Feminism isn’t always about challenging different roles for men and women. It’s about bettering the lives of women. Material improvements in women’s lives can come about without challenging gender roles.

Security processes thousands of people per day. I reckon they see trans people regularly, possibly daily, and they will have a policy on how to deal with us. In the UK, the law says I should be treated as a woman, and they will no doubt comply with that law. I certainly wouldn’t want to cause distress to someone who’s religion meant they didn’t want to touch me. The safest thing here would be for an officer not of that religion to search me. I would presume a religious security officer would be fully trained in what to do and know how to deal with this sort of situation. I certainly wouldn’t be upset if a security officer felt they couldn’t touch me because I was trans. I would be very upset, and I would complain, if an officer refused to search me because they said I was a man. It is the security people who are in control here, and the onus would be on a female security officer to recuse herself.
I doubt the security officer would be permitted to recuse herself. Also WRT security officers in hijabs - if the rule is that females search MtF trans then that's the issue, not that muslims will have more of a problem with it. Muslim voices don't have any added weight in this argument, that wouldn't be fair.

If stereotypical gender roles did not exist, and there were no expectations or constraints placed on people because of assumptions linked to their biological sex, how would gender identity play out? Do you think people of one sex would still feel their gender identity 'belonged' to the other? I can't really get how they are not interlinked ideas.

When trans people transition, it doesn't been they're buying into society's myths and stereotypes. They're just aligning their bodies with their gender identities

Sorry, I had a late night too (non-Strictly related, sadly) and I don't understand what that means. For example, apart from the TRAs I'm pretty sure are trolling us, I have yet to see a transwoman who doesn't grow their hair long, for example. Long hair is not exclusively a female thing, of course, but it is culturally and historically associated with femininity (and female sexuality - hence the requirements of certain religions for women to keep their hair covered in the presence of non-family men)

Now100 jellyfrizz

The problem of the straight-jacket of expected gender roles is pretty much the basis of feminism.

I totally agree with that, but "expected gender roles" are society created myths and constructs and we have to keep challenging them. They are part of patriarchy and deconstructing and freeing ourselves from them is one of the things we need to do to liberate ourselves.

Gender Identity is nothing to do with society, it is either innate or acquired before a child is around 3 years old. It's the person's own internal sense of what sex they are.

I was born male, but my gender identity is female. I can't help that. Scientists tell me it happened sometime before I was 3 years old.
That doesn't stop me questioning and challenging what you call "expected gender roles".

When trans people transition, it doesn't been they're buying into society's myths and stereotypes. They're just aligning their bodies with their gender identities.

There are two very different ideas here. Gender is not the same thing as gender identity.

The problem of the straight-jacket of expected gender roles is pretty much the basis of feminism. I suspect very few women truly don't notice it.

Apologies for adding to the derail but ^^THIS.

I think it's really interesting you think non-trans people have no sense of gender identity. The problem of the straight-jacket of expected gender roles is pretty much the basis of feminism. I suspect very few women truly don't notice it.

DonnaBe thanks for engaging. I don’t want to derail this thread any further so I’ll bow out and say I wish you well.

GollyGoshGreat

Do you think the patriarchy is the reason why you decide to co-opt ‘woman’ and not proudly be non-conforming gay man?

No. I'm not co-opting anything, and I'm certainly not a gay man.

Sexuality and gender identity are entirely different things.
Gender Identity is someone's own sense of what sex they are. For the vast majority of people it coincides with their biological sex. For trans people it doesn't and we get all sorts of mental health problems.

Non trans people don't notice they have a gender identity. If you're trans you don't notice anything else.

It's much easier to conceptualise homosexuality - people are attracted to other people for sex and companionship - gay people are simply attracted to people the same sex as them. It's easy for the "normal" majority to see the parallels.

It's much harder for non-trans people to understand trans people. There are no obvious metaphors. We often find it hard to articulate our own condition because the concepts to do so aren't present in the zeitgeist. The concept you need - gender identity - is not apparent to non-trans people.
Many feminists deny gender identity exists and argue we're just conforming to patriarchal stereotypes. I think that's why the arguments between us are often so bitter. I'm in favour of challenging stereotypes, dismantling patriarchy and helping all people to live true lives.

There's a Wikipedia article on gender Identity which is a good introduction: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity

And a Royal College of Psychiatrists statement here: www.rcpsych.ac.uk/pdf/PS02_18.pdf

DonnaBe I hope your hangover has broken now.

I know about intersectionality thanks. I’m interested in how you feel the power plays out there as the male-sexed person that took away the decision of the woman to touch a male-sexed body.

Do you think the patriarchy is the reason why you decide to co-opt ‘woman’ and not proudly be non-conforming gay man?

OP - I have a ‘butch’ female colleague who one first take looks male but when you interact with her it’s plain that she’s a woman. We’ve travelled together and she’s had a few double takes. Probably harder if you’re a GNC male.

It's definitely an issue in some countries. Gigi Gorgeous (Youtube person) wasn't able to get into Dubai and made an almighty fuss about it (but still wasn't let in, wealthy heiress girlfriend had to fly out to the rescue).

GollyGoshGreat

As expected, I was a bit worse for wear after Strictly. A bit disappointed as I'd only heard of one of the contestants. Anyway, here's my answer:

Things happened fast. I was told “Step over here madam”, and within seconds, a woman was frisking me and using a hand held scanner on me. I was not in control of the situation, the security people were.

Security processes thousands of people per day. I reckon they see trans people regularly, possibly daily, and they will have a policy on how to deal with us. In the UK, the law says I should be treated as a woman, and they will no doubt comply with that law.

I certainly wouldn’t want to cause distress to someone who’s religion meant they didn’t want to touch me. The safest thing here would be for an officer not of that religion to search me. I would presume a religious security officer would be fully trained in what to do and know how to deal with this sort of situation. I certainly wouldn’t be upset if a security officer felt they couldn’t touch me because I was trans. I would be very upset, and I would complain, if an officer refused to search me because they said I was a man.
It is the security people who are in control here, and the onus would be on a female security officer to recuse herself.

Not allowing women to touch men is a form of oppression. It’s patriarchy exerting its control. It prevents women being doctors, nurses, paramedics or even police officers or fire fighters. Women in this position need our support as their religion may be forcing them to live life in what Simone de Beauvoir called “Bad Faith”. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_faith_(existentialism). But it's important that we do not start by attacking the religion. The slogan should be "Support the Women".

From a policy making point of view, where two groups of people’s rights, opinions or expectations of life clash with each other, the best approach I’ve found is Intersectionality. It teaches us how to recognise conflicts, and work towards resolving them. There’s lots of stuff on the web about Intersectionality, and I’d definitely recommend this book: www.amazon.co.uk/Intersectionality-Concepts-Patricia-Hill-Collins/dp/0745684491?tag=mumsnetforum-21

DonnaBe thank you. There’s no edge to my question. Genuinely interested to know how you feel about it.

GollyGoshGreat

Ooohhhh thought you were all too friendly! I’m not avoiding answering, we just watched Strictly Come Dancing and are all a little bit drunk in our house!

Your question needs a long answer! I’d be unsociable answering now, so I’ll look forward to responding in the morning.

Have a good evening.

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