Please can someone who thinks that TWAW..

And Rat does not get to redefine language at his will.

you have to acknowledge that "woman" in everyday life is not used to describe those with the confirmed characteristic of being of the female sex. It just isn't.

But Rat, it just is. Outside a tiny group, and those who have to pretend to believe them, out in the real world, it is.

Because identifying in to an oppressed racial class is appropriation and offensively racist but identifying in to the oppressed class of woman is stunning and progressive. Denying this obvious reality is the same as denying the earth is round.

I’d like to know, and I am not sure if this is the right thread for it, but if as a white women, I suddenly decide to identify as a black women, why that is any different than a man identifying as a woman or vice versa.
If a women is “a feeling” rather than biological fact, then why is colour not also a feeling?

Natal or cis women do have rights. Do you mean rights specifically in relation to trans/cis issues, i.e. sex-based rights?

Most women have body dysmorphia a totally different thing to gender dysphoria.

Nobody is redefining/defying/denying reality. It is a reality that gender and sex are two separate entities. One can choose not to believe that reality, much like one can choose not to believe the earth is not an oblate spheroid.

Its almost like there is a fundamental difference between women and transwomen.

@RatRolyPoly Im sorry but you just seem to be mangling vague interpretations of postmodern theory in to meaningless nonesense in the persuit of mens sex rights.

I think they do genuinly 'believe' it, but, its like there are different kinds of belief for different things iykwim.
Basically they believe it because they really want to beleive it, I guess.

If you really really want to believe something you will find any 'fact' or theory, however abstract or nonesenseicle, and and use that as a shield against reality.
Everyone has done it at some point in their lives, be it religion or desperatly believing a partner loves you despite all evidence. If you desperat enough you keep reality just enough out of your concious mind.

I can accept that gender dysphoria is real and people with that psychological issue deserve sympathy and respect.

I also think natal women have rights, too.

Zombie thread!

For me it's because I accept gender dysphoria is real. I can't fully comprehend how it feels. The closest I can get is knowing I feel female (and was born as such). If someone came and knocked me out and transitioned me against my will: when I awoke, I would still be female in my head and heart. I assume it's the same, apart from sex I was born as. I can understand that gender is an innate feeling and not necessarily your birth sex.

BertrandRussell "A big personal issue for me here is the cognitive dissonance. From the start, I have felt that I should be on the TWAW side." and "It is very uncomfortable to feel that I am saying "No, you can't be what you want to be""

I totally get this. I signed petitions for things like Tara to be moved to a women's prison and that little trans identifying child in the USA to get to use the female loos. I did it when I didn't really understand the full picture. Now I would want to sign petitions or campaign for safe spaces for trans people without denying that biology matters.

This thing has rumbled on so long, but I can see how cracks in the walls. Lots of in fighting etc. No real desire to help all trans identifying people from with the LGBT ++ community. No desire to protect lesbians etc.

I used to think non-binary was a bad thing but now I think it is a limited good thing (for those who want it) because it may stop people feeling the need to transition if they can be happy as non-binary.

Plus, the need to supply safe third spaces for non-binary people means all trans people, and all the women who want to be in with natal men who identify as women, can all use a third safe space. Those looking for validation may even find it in that some natal women will use those spaces while identifying as natal women! If that makes sense!

Is there any campaign for these safe third spaces?

The difference between us and them, is that we are critically assessing the problem. We have been asking, practically begging, for an open and transparent informed debate to look at the whole issue, to see how each position became so strongly held and to see if there is a way to get satisfactory outcomes for everyone.

They are trying to get away with "shut up and sit down, the men are in charge, we will decide" response. And they don't like that we won't do that.

The thing that I struggle with is that I can't believe that people, including those in powerful positions, who say TWAW truly believe it. Because TW are NOT women. So why are these people perpetuating the lie?

Action speak louder than words. Even if they don't believe it, their actions and policies have validated TWAW. Their actions and policies also tell me (and the public) that it is a done deal. They are either silent or they tell you and me to "get over it".

Let Penny Mordaunt debate the government's policies with one of the Women's organisations and let's get to the bottom of this TWAW mind-set.

Doubt it as IW is convinced that they are a genuine woman.

Can it be that IW will finally begin to understand why the TWAW mantra doesn't work for actual XX women?

And IW seems to totally ignore the fact that there are males who claim to be women just by stating that they are. Not sure what IW would have to say about those

IW was none too happy about Pips Bunce.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3372607-India-Willoughby-meltdown-on-Twitter-re-Pips-Bunce

It’s not my own thought, but if people genuinely thought twaw they wouldn’t give a shit about their mental health, suicide stats, sexual assault and rape risks, daily discrimination for just existing, lack of job opportunities based on other people’s prejudice etc, etc. Because they make it clear through attitudes and words that they don’t give a shit about the w so they obviously perceive a difference between the tw and the w, though they won’t admit it.

theOtherPamAYresThe thing that I struggle with is that I can't believe that people, including those in powerful positions, who say TWAW truly believe it. Because TW are NOT women. So why are these people perpetuating the lie?

That said, I once saw IW stating on a breakfast telly segment regarding women's refuges that transwomen victims of DV should be allowed in because they are not men (and then went on to say that no such place existed for trans people so where else were they meant to go?)

Add bd67th list into the mix and what IW says makes some sense. Depending on how far down the transition path they have gone, transwomen may no longer be men, but transwomen are still not women.

And IW seems to totally ignore the fact that there are males who claim to be women just by stating that they are. Not sure what IW would have to say about those (Although I think I saw on a twitter thread that IW said that a transgender prisoner with a penis should not be housed in the female estate - and was then referred to as 'the Katie Hopkins of the trans movement' or some such)

Now read through - many amazing posts!

I am only on page seven, but also wanted to thank AnchorMum for her insightful post