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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Please can someone who thinks that TWAW..

336 replies

BertrandRussell · 22/09/2018 01:03

...explain to me the intellectual process that got you there? I promise -and as far as I can I promise on behalf of other people - not to challenge or argue and only ask clarification questuons. I just want to understand, even if I don't agree.

OP posts:
50greyshades · 05/10/2021 22:52

A victim is a victim and any gender (or not) can be a perpetrator. I agree that cisgender men commit acts of rape to an extent that a cisgender woman never could and on a greater scale but I don't think people should delude themselves into believing all cisgender women are incapable of being the same things that cisgender men, trans women, trans men, non-binary people, intersex people can be too.

TheABC · 05/10/2021 22:52

I read rat's definition and came to the conclusion it's about "passing". As in, someone who feels innately female and looks female in a generally agreed way.

  1. If that's the case, half the women on this board would fail the definition. I definitely don't "feel" female, although I am quite glad to have a working clitoris.

  2. I thought the whole passing argument was transphobic? Not to mention unnecessary. Under the GRA, you just need to change your name on you utility bills. No surgery, hormone treatment or even the need to shave your beard off. TBH, I do agree with that stance if it's about social gender - I find the insistence on chopping and changing a child's perfectly healthy body parts stomach-churning.

It does not excuse or remove the need for boundaries around single sex spaces.

334bu · 05/10/2021 22:50

But when one or two trans women commit a crime like rape it's presented as a gotcha when the vast majority of them don't go on to commit these crimes.

Unfortunately it is not just one or two transwomen who are sex offenders. Of the cohort of prisoners who identify as transwomen over 40% are sex offenders compared with an average of 19% amongst other male prisoners. However, you are quite right to say that not all transwomen are rapists just as not all other male people are rapists.

mswales · 05/10/2021 22:47

@jellyfrizz

In these instances all that I can see is that they would be harassed and therefore the statement made by the OP that they do want trans people to live peacefully and unharassed is unrealistic.

Then the answer is to deal with those doing the harassing.

I think there'd be a fair few people on this thread harassing anyone who appeared to be a man using the women's toilets or changing room. Do they have to carry a sign around saying "don't worry I'm a transman so biologically this is the space I should be getting changed in?"
Nellodee · 05/10/2021 22:45

You are right. The vast majority of men are not rapists. It is still true that the vast majority of rapists are men.

50greyshades · 05/10/2021 22:41

But when one or two trans women commit a crime like rape it's presented as a gotcha when the vast majority of them don't go on to commit these crimes.

Nellodee · 05/10/2021 22:26

So few

Nellodee · 05/10/2021 22:25

In a country where 1.5 million women have faced rape or sexual assault, and where so free of these rapes result in a charge, let alone a conviction, it’s fucking obscene to present the 1 or 2 women who have been found guilty of rape, (which by necessity in this country means aiding a man to rape), as a gotcha.

334bu · 05/10/2021 22:08

98% v. 0.2%

Also majority of rape cases involving females are cases where the female abetted rapist in the commission of the crime. Penis still needed.

50greyshades · 05/10/2021 22:01

Women can rape. Look up the definition of rape because you're sort of excusing people like Vanessa George.

FlibbertyGiblets · 05/10/2021 21:43

@50greyshades

I don't know what world you're living in but cisgender women can be rapists, voyeurs and paedophiles.
You joined Mumsnet tonight to tell us a lie. Rape in the UK means penetration with a penis. Women cannot rape. It is an man's offence. Not our crime. Thank you XX
foxgoosefinch · 05/10/2021 21:36

@RatRolyPoly

Hang on, I'll try and give you something to work with.

Room full of people, I pick out all the women. Truth is I don't know what's in their pants or what chromosomes they have, you might say I do because someone's dog always barks at their brothers or some such, but the bare truth is that I don't.

Same room of people, I ask people to tell me whether or not they're a woman. Those declaring themselves women may or may not be the same people I thought were women, and whilst they certainly know better than I do what's in their pants, we're not going to be asking them to prove it any time soon.

So which of them are women? The ones I've identified who also identify themselves as women, they're the easy ones, right? Because as long as we're not checking (and in almost every situation where the word is used, we don't) then that is all we have to go on. Because whilst woman may usually refer to an adult human female, what we actually use it to mean is those we both TAKE to be adult human females, and who also confirm that they ARE adult human females. Regardless of their chromosomes. THAT is what the word means. It is a person who both takes themselves to be and is taken by others to be a woman.

You can be frustrated if you think that's circular, or fluffy, or whatever you like, but you have to acknowledge that "woman" in everyday life is not used to describe those with the confirmed characteristic of being of the female sex. It just isn't. And a word's definition should describe how it is ACTUALLY USED by people, not dictate how it should be. A dictionary won't go into this much detail because that is not the purpose of the dictionary, but the way we actually use the word of course takes precedence.

Now what of those people who either I identify as women but who don't themselves, or indeed the other way round? Given that no proof is being asked for or offered, traditionally the self-declaration of the individual is given more precedence as they at least know what's in their pants. And actually were it a situation where it really mattered what their biology was there would usually be a burden of proof. In everyday situations there is not.

But what if I still disagree that they're a woman? Well, the bottom line is they can be a woman in their eyes and not in mine. Particularly if within society as a whole I am in the minority thinking they're not a woman. Because then to most people they satisfy the criteria of both identifying themselves and being identified by others as a woman. Frankly, as long as it is a situation where no proof is required, a woman is someone who both declares they are one and who society accepts as one, regardless of the assertion of any other individual.

Hope that helps! Got a sporting event to get ready for now but maybe back in the evening :)

Well this is a load of old waffle that doesn’t answer the actual question.

You talk here about whether you disagree that someone is a woman - so you’re acknowledging that a woman is something you think someone can either be or not. Undoes your whole argument to be honest.

The question is not “should we act as if “woman” is partly a social category”. The question is “if you believe TWAW, by virtue of what do you believe this?”

Your post above doesn’t actually answer the OP’s question at all.

Piapiano · 05/10/2021 21:25

In the UK rape means penetration with a penis. Women cannot rape.

334bu · 05/10/2021 21:16

I don't know what world you're living in but cisgender women can be rapists, voyeurs and paedophiles.
In a world where 98%of sex offenders are of the male sex and transwomen are just as likely to be sex offenders as any other males.

50greyshades · 05/10/2021 21:06

I don't know what world you're living in but cisgender women can be rapists, voyeurs and paedophiles.

Piapiano · 05/10/2021 20:54

Oh I didn't see it was a zombie thread. Still interesting though!

Piapiano · 05/10/2021 20:50

@Babdoc

I can’t help feeling that the TRAs have rather shot themselves in the foot with this TWAW nonsense. If they had simply gone with the truth - that they’re men who are deeply unhappy with the male gender stereotype forced on them by our patriarchial society, and who wish to present as a female gender stereotype instead, they could have quite happily gone around in their dresses and heels, been accepted as effeminate men, used male facilities etc. No problem. But to try and insist that they’re actually, biological women, in the face of all the factual evidence to the contrary, to try and force their way into women’s private spaces, to compromise women’s safety and dignity, to hold the door open for a raft of rapists, voyeurs and paedophiles to follow them in - that is bound to cause anger and refusal from any sane woman.
I 100% agree with this.
50greyshades · 05/10/2021 20:37

Money is a lie that everyone agrees to therefore since you don't like lies you're happy to give away all of your money?

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 08/07/2021 09:02

I wouldn't rule it out

Fair point

I did think that as i was typing it and then I thought…..naaaaah surely not

NiceGerbil · 08/07/2021 02:17

I haven't read the whole thread and was going to get stuck in but zombie thread!

Since this was written.

Rats views have prevailed.

Woman/ girl are social roles and always have been (!)

You can only tell what sex someone is by looking in their pants (!!!)

The definition of female is inadequate. Sex is more complicated than that (!!!)

This has gained traction now.

Female penis.
Rapists in women's prisons.
Anyone can go into any single sex space they fancy (but for female people to go to men's stuff is not generally desirable and men have no problem saying sod off and they are bigger and stronger so... It's a one way street. Etc etc).

Old thread.

Rat you won! Well done :)

(For now)

EyesOpening · 08/07/2021 01:12

@PrawnofthePatriarchy

Zombie thread!
I'm glad it was resurrected though, there was a very interesting thread (badly) linked on the first page, which I've not seen before.
Datun · 07/07/2021 23:12

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer

I doubt rat is reading a thread thats over 2 and a half years old

I mean theres being invested…but two years is going some

I wouldn't rule it out 😄
dyslek · 07/07/2021 22:57

Men already have all the rights they need.

KoalaPig83 · 07/07/2021 22:55

Ah yes, we do lack many rights, you're correct. I was actually going to make sarcastic about how we have rights, nothing as extreme as equal pay or other such dizzying expectations, but rights none the less.

I didn't make the joke coz I wasn't 100% sure what you meant and didn't want to muddy things further by adding written sarcasm.

I agree women's rights need to come on much more. For me, that includes trans women too, but I know not everyone agrees.🙂

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 07/07/2021 22:27

I doubt rat is reading a thread thats over 2 and a half years old

I mean theres being invested…but two years is going some

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