Please can someone who thinks that TWAW..

I read your answer as woman being how you present yourself to the world at large RatRolyPoly, but it would really help me to understand your view if you could explain how a person born with XY chromosomes is the same as me, who was born with XX chromosomes - regardless of what either of us are wearing.

No one ever explains their stance properly and instead write reams and reams of wokeness because otherwise they'd have to actually admit the truth. Which is no, tw aren't women because they are men. If they are women, why do they need to trans?

It is literally that simple and factual and truthful.

I think 'the lovely transwomen I know have a hard time so I agree with them" Is just an example of me being kind and going along with stuff so as not to hurt them. Or less, benignly, because there might be a confrontation. Women are good at that. We do that from childhood.

No Rat that doesn’t work. Just because you can’t always tell the difference between a male animal and a female animal doesn’t mean they are not definitively different things. Facts exist. Words exist to name factual things. Men do not become women.

By all means agree that some people think they might be other than what they actually are. And there might be reasons to be kind to them about that. But that doesn’t mean the facts have changed and that’s what Bert was asking.

Short version = yes, it's a social construct. Undeniably.

Vicky the social construction of a concept has nothing to do with the way women are oppressed. That's like saying the way we add up numbers can't be right because it doesn't account for the colour of the beans we're counting.

I can accept people's beliefs about themselves. People believe all sorts of things about themselves:

That they are ugly
That the Lord speaks to them
That they are fat
That they are more intelligent than me
That they are a woman
That they look good in that dress

And most of the time it's neither here nor there. Their belief does not affect me; it's no skin off my nose. (Sometimes it hurts me to see people whose beliefs hurt them). But it matters to me when it effects a change in the Law that codifies a belief int 'facts' that do affect me.

Sorry, Rat - that's nonsense. The actuality of why women are oppressed means agreeing that people who 'identify' as women are women is illogical and harmful to women.

I suppose I see it as there being more than one definition of what a woman is - one relates to chromosomes and genitalia and another that relates to gender identity.
To me, this is the crux of it. Two things that are entirely unrelated are being lumped together as 'woman'. A woman is defined by biology. Having a feminine gender identity doesn't make you a woman, it makes you feminine.

I'm afraid the "The lovely transwomen I know have had a hard time so I call them women" view doesn't actually answer the question.

Hang on, I'll try and give you something to work with.

Room full of people, I pick out all the women. Truth is I don't know what's in their pants or what chromosomes they have, you might say I do because someone's dog always barks at their brothers or some such, but the bare truth is that I don't.

Same room of people, I ask people to tell me whether or not they're a woman. Those declaring themselves women may or may not be the same people I thought were women, and whilst they certainly know better than I do what's in their pants, we're not going to be asking them to prove it any time soon.

So which of them are women? The ones I've identified who also identify themselves as women, they're the easy ones, right? Because as long as we're not checking (and in almost every situation where the word is used, we don't) then that is all we have to go on. Because whilst woman may usually refer to an adult human female, what we actually use it to mean is those we both TAKE to be adult human females, and who also confirm that they ARE adult human females. Regardless of their chromosomes. THAT is what the word means. It is a person who both takes themselves to be and is taken by others to be a woman.

You can be frustrated if you think that's circular, or fluffy, or whatever you like, but you have to acknowledge that "woman" in everyday life is not used to describe those with the confirmed characteristic of being of the female sex. It just isn't. And a word's definition should describe how it is ACTUALLY USED by people, not dictate how it should be. A dictionary won't go into this much detail because that is not the purpose of the dictionary, but the way we actually use the word of course takes precedence.

Now what of those people who either I identify as women but who don't themselves, or indeed the other way round? Given that no proof is being asked for or offered, traditionally the self-declaration of the individual is given more precedence as they at least know what's in their pants. And actually were it a situation where it really mattered what their biology was there would usually be a burden of proof. In everyday situations there is not.

But what if I still disagree that they're a woman? Well, the bottom line is they can be a woman in their eyes and not in mine. Particularly if within society as a whole I am in the minority thinking they're not a woman. Because then to most people they satisfy the criteria of both identifying themselves and being identified by others as a woman. Frankly, as long as it is a situation where no proof is required, a woman is someone who both declares they are one and who society accepts as one, regardless of the assertion of any other individual.

Hope that helps! Got a sporting event to get ready for now but maybe back in the evening :)

I'm literally all ears

I was thinking something similar last night and almost started a thread asking: 'If we take away the biological truth of XX = female and XY = male (accepting that other X and Y combinations are also possible in very rare case) and the reproductive functions of the respective sexes, how is a transwoman, whether with or without any hormones or surgery, the same as me?' But that's a bit wordy.

In other words asking why we are the same rather than why we are different as a way to try to understand the TWAW stance.

Peaked - sounds like a healthy resolution. Still waiting for it to crop up at work

Confusedwww.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3370046-confused

^ my other thread where I asked if feminism and believing TWAW were compatible

^The majority of people who say TWAW are trying to be kind and accepting and don’t see the harm in going along with something that could make a deeply unhappy person less unhappy.

They haven’t thought about the knock on implications.^

I think is partly true. I know a lot of trans people in RL (masculine, feminine and non-binary) and have always been shocked by the struggles they’ve dealt with and happy to support self-ID if it helps them live a normal life. I suppose I see it as there being more than one definition of what a woman is - one relates to chromosomes and genitalia and another that relates to gender identity. And yes, of course gender identity is shaped by stereotypes and varies depending on the culture. I don’t believe there is one way to be female but I do believe as a culture we have some shared ideas about what ‘femaleness’ entails. It’s interesting to consider whether in a truly equal society trans people would still exist. Probably not but we don’t live in that world and trans people need to find a way of negotiating that.

As for the implications - I’m honestly not completely deaf to that. I’m hugely defensive because I’ve seen how badly some of my trans friends have been treated in the past and that means that the minute the debate becomes personal or nasty I switch off. But I do listen to the arguments when they’re made in a reasonable way without personal attacks and I do think there are some issues around self-ID we could do with discussing. I suspect that defensiveness is massively multiplied if you are trans and that’s why we’re not getting much debate. And of course non-trans women are also defensive considering the shit we’ve had to put up with (& still do) so anything perceived as a further threat to us is terrifying.

I’m not sure if that answers the question! But goes some way to explain my thinking process as I think I’m exactly the sort of person this thread is aimed at

slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/21/the-categories-were-made-for-man-not-man-for-the-categories/

PeakedInThePeaks what was your other thread.

RatRolyPoly yes I am interested in your thoughts.

I do brlirbr some people do actually believe this. Some trans eomrm themselves, obviously, but others too.

Handsoffmyrights I have cut her out of my life is how I've handled it I don't actually work with her anymore but considered her a colleague as in she's the same profession as me and we talk shop regularly.

Well, you’ll be waiting if you think you’re going to get the intellectual process behind the viewpoint.

The majority of people who say TWAW are trying to be kind and accepting and don’t see the harm in going along with something that could make a deeply unhappy person less unhappy.

They haven’t thought about the knock on implications. Or the unforeseen consequences (on their parts) such as a little baby, helpless and defenceless, and the person they rely upon most of all’s post-natal focus appears to be on bringing a test case to ensure that baby will never have a legal mother.

These are the people to reach

A sizeable minority will obediently and unthinkingly parrot any BS from the right woke source. Belief doesn’t come in to it.

A tiny minority use the statement as mind and thought control. As evidence of their dominance and ability to subjugate those who won’t mollify and endorse their absurdities. They are the very scary ones.

None believe.

Go on then Rat - explain why you believe TWAW.

Oh gawd Peaked, that was your thread. I don't know how I would have handled that IRL without imploding.

You must have felt like reality had left the building.

Handsoffmyrights exactly. My thread the other day highlighted this and was a response to a feminist colleague stating TWAW. I didn't see how you could be a feminist and believe that.

I also would like an answer. Clearly their idea of what a woman is is different to mine, so, from their perspective, what is a woman? How do you define the category so that it includes Caitlyn Jenner, your mum, and me, but excludes your dad and Jack Nicholson (not implying anything in particular there, was just trying to think of a male celebrity roughly Jenner's age who everyone agrees is male).