Please can someone who thinks that TWAW..

I get what you’re saying rat but as no one is advocating for the genital police it can’t really go anywhere.

More people don’t ‘pass’ than do, especially when looking at the trans umbrella, because apparently the goal isn’t to pass, it is to be who you say/think you are. If non passing trans people are emboldened to use the facilities of their internal gender are they more or less likely to be abused? If a non passing trans umbrella person goes into a female toilet/changing room after your 7 year old daughter has gone in alone and you’re a dad what do you do? Celebrate diversity or go in after them to make sure your dd is ok?

I knew my ds was a boy at 14 weeks gestation because of genetic testing. His sex was not assigned at birth, it was there long before he would have been able to have a conscious thought. It just is and there’s nothing wrong with that.

Men smell difference too. Pheromones etc. Male sweat smells very different so you can tell.

@PenguinSaidEverything you're confusing women and feminine. Women is the biology. Feminine is the gender. Women is not one word for two things.

It's not just you. Seems to be a lot of people getting this mixed up.

even babies can tell

And dogs.

The idea that we can't tell the difference between men and women is just absolute bollocks.
We all know, even babies can tell.

No. We are what we are. We can't just 'identify' as something else and become that that thing! That's an absolute nonsense.

When I was a child I loved cats. I wanted to be a cat with all my heart. I watched cats. I observed the way they moved; they way they curled up and slept; the way they arched their backs and stretched after a nap; the way they lapped milk; they way they 'verbalised'... And I practised and recreated it and, in my head, I was a pretty authentic looking cat. I assumed that all those looking at me would see that I was being a cat. I coveted and idealised the life of a cat.

But I wasn't. I was a 6-8 year old girl. I didn't identify as a girl. But it didn't matter because I identified as / was a cat. But even in those moments when, in my head, I was 100% feline, and assumed others would recognise me as such, and sometimes treated me as such, the absolute indesputeable fact was that I was 0% cat and 100% female human. Walking like a cat; purring like a cat; lapping milk from a saucer like a cat; curling up like a cat; stretching like a cat did not make me, in any sense, a cat.

And I cannot see, for even a nanosecond, how TWAW is any different to FFHIAC (FlowerpotFairyHouse Is A Cat).

How do you define a woman? Really the only answer that works is "has XX chromosomes". Because if you start to add in any other biology it doesn't apply to all women. So does that make those women not women? Clearly not.

It is very easy......the human species exists because there are two sexual reproductive roles- producing large gametes or small gametes. Everyone belongs to one of these two classes. The effectiveness of their capacity to produce one or other of these gametes does not influence which class they belong to.

Personally i don't think 'feeling excluded' is a reason not to engage on something important.

As I keep saying, nothing that is in place to protect those with certain characteristics can include everyone all the time, because it makes it all completely useless. In a situation where women are being ordered to include people against their will, why shouldn't they call it out?

I’d say the only times you really wouldn’t be able to tell would be on those who have been transed before puberty, which is surely still very rare, or on those who have had vast amounts of surgery. 99.9% of the time, it’s pretty obvious - with MtF anyway.
You can generally tell just from looking at the back of a person, their stance and hip alignment.

What Rat had done here is show that TWAW only if we all totally disregard the meaning of W.

BrownPaper

You are asking us to be nicer about how we state our beliefs. That rankles a bit, to be honest. Because all we want to be able to do is assert our boundaries, and state material reality, without being accused of anything.

If you have been on here a lot you'll have seen the arguments, but here's a good introductory thread if not:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

BrownPaperTeddy I remember you from my Confused thread and am thinking you're referring to that thread. Your perception is different to mine as the one poster who argued that TWAW was the one that refused to answer any questions after repeatedly being asked the same things so then people got pissed off. I got pissed off and asked if they were a man or a handmaiden because they certainly weren't putting women front and centre . I didn't call them one. I asked if they were one. Quite different. That thread was actually very helpful in highlighting the issue with thinking TWAW. This thread further illustrates mine.

Transwomen are men who would like to be considered qualitatively as women even though quantitatively they are not.

So would you describe a trans man as a woman?

How do you define a woman? Really the only answer that works is "has XX chromosomes". Because if you start to add in any other biology it doesn't apply to all women. So does that make those women not women? Clearly not.

The survival of the human race depends on males and females copulating and to do so, they need to identify each other.

But many people, men and women, have no interest in copulating with the opposite sex nor of having children.

Teddy

I think you need to own your reactions to posts rather then apportion blame to others.

My posts also very rarely get responded to. I think my posts are often more moderate/conciliatory/questioning than most.

I don't think this abusive, I expect they get overlooked because the don't strike a chord or resonate or interest other posters.

With regard to people disagreeing with posters, it is wrong to quantify the number of people responding with abuse. Abuse would only be present if the content were abusive.

If your definition of 'woman' allows a male bodied convicted rapist on to a psychiatric ward you need to have a rethink.

👏👏👏

Bertrand

Yes I have come to that shocking conclusion...

It's not very trendy though, is it ?

That’s all well and good, but I can’t idenitfy my way out of endometriosis by saying I’m a man.

If I’d told the multiple men who sexually assaulted me that I’m a man, would it have stopped it from happening?

I couldn’t prevent myself from being pregnant or being discriminated against by employers for having kids by saying I’m a man.

Women experience these and other oppressions because of their biology. Saying I’m not a woman wouldn’t stop them.

If your definition of 'woman' allows a male bodied convicted rapist on to a psychiatric ward you need to have a rethink.

Can you please define abuse? BrownPaper

Sure.
Read most threads on this topic and anyone posting a different opinion is very quickly rounded on, called "handmaiden" or similar, calls of "we see you".

No attempt to engage. No attempt at proper conversation.

Much of what they say is ignored. Questions aren't answered.

It basically ends up with a group of posters ganging up on one poster until that individual leaves.

That is what I meant be abuse.

I don't see how that progresses your argument in any way. I really do share many of your concerns but I don't feel able to join with you because I feel excluded by you.

Surely if anyone has a message that they want to get out then they have to engage in a way that the intended recipients of that message actually hear it?

I am on the fence on this subject. No of course I don't want abusive men, in any sense of the term, allowed unhindered into women's spaces.

But then if we say that trans men and trans women use the spaces of their own biological or natal sex I can't see how that even begins to work.

As women we may still have a person who appears very male ie dresses male, looks like a man, has a beard etc coming into the ladies toilet or changing room? I find that very odd.

Equally a trans woman has to use the men's toilet? Even though no one would even give them a second look if they passed them in the street?

In these instances all that I can see is that they would be harassed and therefore the statement made by the OP that they do want trans people to live peacefully and unharassed is unrealistic.

Maybe what I'm asking for is how do you see the practicalities of what you are asking for working in real life?

I am female. But how will people decide that I am "really" female if say I want to use the toilet? Will there be an inspection of my genitalia before I am assigned a toilet to use? Or maybe a DNA test so that they can see of I am XX or XY?

I agree with a lot of the feminist argument. I don't agree with how the argument is put across and I don't see how in real life, rather than in academic arguments, it can be put into practice.

But I want someone to break it down and explain it to me. Just without insulting me or calling me names.

If self ID does not go ahead how do you envisage trans people living their lives peacefully and unharrassed as you agree they should be able to?
I think that’s for men to sort out. I am tired of being expected to put my own safety and that of other women and children at risk because some men can’t controll themselves.

Absinthe

Oh God that video

Ultimately not one single one of us knows the sex of the people we call man or woman with any certainty. The gender binary and secondary sex characteristics contribute to our assertion, but we could never know if everyone we've ever taken to be a woman has been female. Or that anyone we've ever taken to be a man hasn't been

If this were true there wouldn't be much hope for the survival of the species.
The survival of the human race depends on males and females copulating and to do so, they need to identify each other.

As a species we do this remarkably well, even when wearing disguises!

We do on the other hand know when we are confronted with a self-proclaimed woman who isn’t one.

I see what Rat is saying but she has not been able to show that men can become women. Or that Transwomen are women. She’s made it a recognition issue. Which is interesting but not an answer. More truthful would be:

Transwomen are men who would like to be considered qualitatively as women even though quantitatively they are not.

This short video highlights the problem of the 'ask a roomful of people' argument. It relies on you overriding your own innate ability to decode the world.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=xfO1veFs6Ho

Once society has done that to its members, chaos ensues. People can't question anything because all questions are circular and logic is discredited