US teaching hospitals are allowing medical students to perform pelvic exams on unconscious, unconsenting women? [Edited by MNHQ]

Fwend I’m glad you are reporting it. I started training in 1997 and it absolutely was not acceptable practice then. In fact we were told to report anyone who suggested it to the medical school. They made it very clear we would be kicked out if we took part ourselves (and rightly so, IMO).

Whoever assaulted you KNEW they were doing wrong. I don’t know whether you were “examined” or just flat out assaulted, but either way the person doing it would have known what they were doing was wrong. There would have been repercussions at the time, and there would certainly be repercussions now (GMC/prison time level repercussions) if you can prove who it was.

It has always been illegal, people just cared less in the 1980s. I cannot imagine it happening now, even if you had one rogue doctor the rest of the team would not stand for it.

Fucks sake, that is sexual assault

There is something epically creepy about a man who wants to spend his entire career rummaging around in women's hoohahs.

But you could say the same thing about colo-rectal specialists. We think about ourselves from the outside, but I'm pretty sure that most specialists think of us the other way around - the working bits inside.

Apart from that, un-consented rooting around is sexual assault.

I won't see male gynos. If anyone has an issue with that, too bad, still not going to.

No man who wants to be a gynaecologist should actually be allowed to. There is something epically creepy about a man who wants to spend his entire career rummaging around in women's hoohahs.

I’ve experienced some shocking treatment at the hands of doctors, particularly gynae. Not just the one I mentioned earlier, but one so awful that I struggle to talk about - the nurse actually came to find me after that procedure because I was so hysterical and told me I should make a complaint.

And like I said, I’ve had six gynae surgeries and I’m 99% sure that those surgeries involved having some kind of instrument capable of moving my uterus inserted vaginally, despite the fact ive been consented for that type of surgery six times and no one has ever mentioned this aspect of it.

But I honestly don’t believe that in the NHS they do vaginal exams in non-gynae surgery. And the only reason I believe that is because even related specialities are completely incapable of communicating or arranging anything like this (for example my son had an MRI due to a vision issue, they told me that it would be good to examine his eyes while he was under anaesthetic but they couldn’t even manage to arrange that).

It says a lot that this is the only reason I don’t believe it. Not because it’s unethical or wrong but because they can’t be arsed.

But nonconsensual vaginal exams and instrumental procedures during gynae surgeries when a woman is already in position? I’d bet good money it’s still happening, especially as I’m pretty sure this has happened to me SIX BLOODY TIMES.

This is fucking disgusting, and surely they could be convicted of sexual assault? You would hope so anyway, as if a woman fell unconscious outside of a medical setting and someone started poking around up there then it would be a clear cut case. Not sure why this would be any different.

Anyhow I am getting off this thread, it's not healthy for me to dwell on this stuff, but it does overall reinforce my impression that a lot of hcp think it wasn't that bad.....

Okay, sorry, I meant "your" in the sense of "the ones you were discussing". I didn't think they were your students but you are right that the wording is unclear.

I am not aware anyone has been absolved and I think it is blameshifting to repeatedly say oh it didn't happen much, oh it was ages ago etc. Obviously no one is blaming you for it happening. Obviously. However as a victim I don't see your posts to date as robustly condemning.

So unless YOUR 80s medical students each separately consented those women, then yes you witnessed assaults

There you go Johnny.

Who isnt condemning assault? I praised the person in charge who raised the activity and even named her. The truth is patients may have consented, they may not. I didnt know at the time. If the person actually undertaking the procedure (or assault if consent hadnt been given) can be absolved of blame with a wave of the hand for not speaking up in case it spoilt their career , then its fascinating how junior theatre staff can be accused of blameshifting.

Washed I never said they were your students

Sorry if I have you wrong but you really seem to be minimising this. First it was all, oh it doesn't happen now, then oh it may have happened somewhere but I never saw it , then oh it was only gynae but they may have consented, then well I have no idea if they consented but I wasn't responsible.

No one is blaming you obviously I find the hcps on this thread worryingly not condemning it outright straight off. More distracting and blameshifting. "It was bad but...."

No. It was just bad.

I really don't see why, if this had only happened when a woman was in for gynae surgery, that would make it less bad. That's going right back to the same rapey logic that led to the "well we don't do it to virgins" policy. The fact that a woman has consented to sex with one person/a specific procedure does not in any way make it OK for people to decide that they can therefore have a bit of a general poke around because that would benefit them, even though it's in no way necessary for her.

Well done Beingginger!

All I can say is that it stopped in the 80s at the large teaching hospital I was at. You are right about it being the Consultant's responsibility too, I do agree on that actually. The medical students and junior doctors ARE responsible though. I whistle blew on someone very senior, and it was a really difficult thing to do. They could, and should, have done the same.

You can't lay it all on the students and ignore the poeple who told them to do it, the people who wacthed, who knew, the hospitals for allowign it etc and so on.

This is an example of an INSTUTIONAL falining, not individuals.

I think it's safe to say it was still going on in the UK in at least 2003,

And googling didn't bring up any blanket bans. It seems to be up to the individual trusts / teaching hosps etc

So while I HOPE it doesn't happen any more,

I dont' think anyone can state with confidence that it doesn't, here in the UK. Fucking hell.

"They weren't 'my' medical students, the responsibility for what they did lies entirely with them."

No. That's not right. They are young and doing what they are told by their teachers, by people with positional power, presumably power to affect their futures etc.

The consultants and other qualified medics instructing this / watching it happen and not asking questions are also culpable. The hospitals for letting it happen. The NHS for not issuing a ban across the board and etc and so on.

Lots of parties standing by / party to this.

I do not know whether they consented. How could I? It appears possible that they did not consent with the benefit of hindsight and investigation.

They weren't 'my' medical students, the responsibility for what they did lies entirely with them.

Xpost!

So basically you have no idea whether what you were witnessing was assault.

But given PP have shown that guidelines about consent only came in in the 90s, and given that MW was moved to speak up to stop it all, and given many reports elsewhere of women having unconsented exams under GA in the UK in the 70s and 80s, I think it is not safe to assume they had consented.

Washed

I am sorry but I don't think you understand what assault is.

If a woman went into theatre for gynae surgery and was examined by student or students whilst under anaesthetic that is assault unless that student had specifically obtained consent from her whilst she was awake and not under pressure.

So unless your 80s medical students each separately consented those women, then yes you witnessed assaults.

Sticking your fingers into a woman without asking her first is assault. Doesn't matter whether she's having gynae surgery or tea with the Queen.

Unconsented gynae exams are assault. End of.

So you did see women having internal examinations by students while under anaesthetic and without their consent? I must have missed this bit.

I think you have missed or misunderstood what I said, yes. I dont know whether the women consented to the examination under anaesthetic, that would have been done prior to coming to theatre. Whether they did or didnt, the one consultant (who if you re-read what I wrote earlier was a vile man) was stopped from allowing 'his' students to do it. This was in the 80s.

I'm not sure you are understanding what I'm saying. There are three different scenarios and the RCOG link relates to the first one below, which everyone agrees did happen.

Women were examined under anaesthetic by medical students when undergoing gynae procedures in the past. I have witnessed that and know it happened. I know when it stopped where I worked because 'Mary' reported it, and despite the enormous pressure she was put under, she stuck to her guns and the practise ceased. I dont know when it stopped elsewhere but you have googled that and found what the RCOG said.

I have never heard of nor witnessed (and other people on this thread have said similarly) women undergoing gynae examinations when having entirely unrelated surgery. If you had worked in theatres, you would understand how unlikely a scenario that would have been. I've tried to explain why upthread. I dont think anyone on this thread has suggested that it did routinely happen have they?

I never witnessed a sexual assault on a patient, but couldn't of course say that it never happened. However, there are possible explanations for what might appear to be a sexual assault, which if you had worked in theatres, you would be aware of, and again, several of us have tried to explain those scenarios. So for example, why patients (male and female) didnt wear pants to theatre, or if they did, why they were removed.

Oh hold on

"To be clear I am talking about unrelated surgery, not gynae - where I absolutely did see women examined under anaesthetic by medical students."

So you did see women having internal examinations by students while under anaesthetic and without their consent?

I must have missed this bit.

@washedwithrain

BBC article linked to the srudy which also is the item being discussed in the BMJ link previously provided

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2642861.stm

"Patients anaesthetised for operations are being used to train medical students in "intimate examinations" - without their consent.
A survey of students in one medical school suggested a quarter felt examinations they carried out on sedated or anaesthetised patients may not have involved "adequate consent".

Guidelines from the General Medical Council state that the permission of patients must be sought prior to any check or treatment.

However, the survey, carried out at the University of Bristol Medical School, suggests that this good practice is not always adhered to.

Students said they were asked to carry out rectal and vaginal examinations "inappropriately".

" I was told in the second year that the best way to learn to do rectal examinations was when the patient was under anaesthetic"

Fourth-year medical student"

In fact that whole thread is interesting. The respondents have cited their roles so it's not like reddit or something.

Extract from one further down (remember this is all in response to a question asked in 2003):

"But some of the responses beggar belief. They confirm that what has
happened to Bristol students almost certainly is happening elsewhere. And
maybe publishing the article was the quickest route to such confirmation.
Certainly quicker than funding a defensible research project. I have been
working with colleagues responsible for ethical and communication issues
in medical schools for many years and I am surprised and disappointed at
how little progress seems to have been made. We were working on these
issues in London in the mid 80’s. We had policies, at least within
Departments, and we tried to implement them. I thought, obviously
mistakenly, that in general the culture now operating recognised the
importance of, at the very least, engaging in egalitarian discussions with
patients about who should examine them and how. I thought that the culture
was also promoting the sensible procedures, or alternative or adjunct
learning strategies outlined by respondents such as written information
and consent forms, simulated and mannequin patients and so forth. I was
too complacent and that is where the problem lies I guess."

How's YOUR googling going washedwithrain or is it up to everyone else to disprove what is a guess and an assumption on your part?