'Handmaidens'

What a pointless thread. OP isn't being genuine here so there's no point talking to them is there?

Thousands of people read this board without posting. Traffic landing via this board has increased twelvefold since 2016. Every post like this - wel it doesn’t change the OPs mind but it does shine a little more sunlight on the issue for people lurking.

Yes, Bowl. One can be supportive of trans people (want to support their right not to be discriminated against in employment, housing, want them to be able to live their lives free from the threat of violence and harrassment) without sharing their belief that "transwomen are women." Just as I would not want to see a Catholic colleague sacked for their Catholicism, but don't want to be forced to recite the Nicene creed.

Clarice is onto something upthread, by suggesting we also consider examples beyond the trans debate.

Take rape apologism, and two journalists responding to a feminist writer saying "we need to reduce the burden of proof in rape cases from 'beyond reasonable doubt' to 'balance of probabilities.'"

One says "I totally agree that low conviction rates are a scandal, but the risk to the justice system as a whole, and the risk of (a) false convictions and (b) criminal proceedings being used to 'fit people up' is too great". Not a handmaiden.

Second says "I fear for my sons, growing up in an environment where a hand on an arse will result in some hussy fitting them up for rape..." - in the knowledge that this woman is plenty bright enough to know that is a straw man, and to know the statistics that an individual man is actually more at risk of being raped by another man than he is of being falsely accused by a woman (she wrote only the week before about how male victims of sexual violence weren't taken seriously) - now, that's handmaidenry in action.

Dakinis
You do know Cameron led the Remain campaign right?

OP: here's the thing - denunciation societies are bad for everyone. FWR feminists have argued against censorious rules on this forum consistently.

If you want to argue the toss over which words should be subject to banning and which words should not - find a group of people who think words should be banned and have at it.

This is not that group.

No that is exactly what GC women are doing calling liberal feminists handmaidens. Attacking the person not the opinion.

In a discourse on, say, a feminist board, you discuss opinions and it can't be off limits to point out that some opinion marks you out as a handmaiden. That is very different from people arbitrarily shouting handmaiden at you while you go along a street or go shopping or whatever, outside a discussion forum / meeting on the matter.

No that is exactly what GC women are doing calling liberal feminists handmaidens. Attacking the person not the opinion.

No that’s what YOU are doing with your assertion that we would all be abusing someone walking down he street with someone trans. Of course none of us would do that.
I wouldn’t shout abuse at people attending church. I reserve my right to be highly critical about Christianity and any other religion as long as I’m not singling out an individual.

There are male rapists in women’s jails. Have you had a read of that yet? May I ask your opinion on it? Is it OK?

What a pointless thread. OP isn't being genuine here so there's no point talking to them is there?

It's like OP cannot conceive of any other environment than absolute authoritarianism.

Wrongthink and vocabulary associated with it must be banned. The argument is about which version of wrongthink should win.

It's like some dystopian tankie resurgence.

"It's directing it towards fellow feminists that is insulting. Suggesting women who do not share the same opinion must somehow be under the thumb of men."
You seem to be suggesting that people think that women are either feminists or handmaidens. There are plenty of non feminists that are not even remotely handmaidenish. The aforementioned Lass is a prime example.

We're just going round and round and round in circles.

Personally I think anyone who voted for Brexit has royally fucked us over but I don't go around calling them David Cameron's pathetic handmaidens.

Plenty of people would! And surely they're not Cameron's handmaidens but those of Farage, Boris etc?

Women on FWR didn't ask for terms to be banned. There are terms we refute strongly and find offensive but we debate and offer reasons as to why.

MNHQ decided to ban them presumably to 'balance' their rules.

'no feminist has any intention of fucking women over. People form their own opinions based on their world view.'

That may well be true, but people who can't define the term 'woman' cannot be feminists, no matter whether they identify as feminists or not.

And no, neither should be banned.

No one on here lobbied for any words or phrases or topics to be banned. We’re grown ups who can talk about a controversial topic, have a jolly good ding dong about it and then agree to disagree without flouncing, crying, reporting people for WrongThink... or threatening legal action...

Dakinis, and yet you insisted that no male sex offender would be put in prison with women and have yet to show you give a shit that you've been shown to be wrong.

So yeah, I'm thinking that I'll take your assertion that you have no intention of fucking women over with a pinch of salt.

You’re creating a set of false equivalencies:

The posters who are happy to use it... would you be happy for a teenage girl walking down the street with a transgender friend to be called a handmaiden?

Why on earth would having a transgender friend make someone a ‘handmaiden.’?

By creating this scenario you imply that anyone who has used this word would never be friends with anyone trans and is somehow hostile to anyone trans. Yet that’s NOT the stance of anyone on here.

We keep seeing this used as a conversation starter - a statement that requires rebuffing, and by rebuffing it the argument is derailed from the real point and people expend energy denying the accusation.

Nobody on here has an issue with the average trans person. We have an issue with ideological issues that threaten to remove our rights and child safeguarding.

I’m a staunch critic of most of the major world religions in terms of ideology.
I also know many really decent religious people of all ofbthose religions.
I wouldn’t discimonate against them, and they have as much right to believe as I have to disbelieve

You’re conflating criticism of an ideology with criticism of a person holding it and that’s a false equivalence.

It would be like my evangelical Christian friend telling me that I’m like, literally erasing her because I’m an atheist.

Okay responses have surprised me, I thought Terf was a slur. I didn't realise the majority were cool with it.

Christ on bike. TERF is a slur. Handmaiden is also often a slur.

NOBODY ON HERE THINKS EITHER SHOULD BE BANNED.

Talking of Handmaidens

twitter.com/jessicavalenti/status/1042931440755781633?s=21

It's directing it towards fellow feminists that is insulting. Suggesting women who do not share the same opinion must somehow be under the thumb of men.

You can't be a feminist if you cannot define 'woman'. Don't be silly.
It is like saying 'ah, I'm a Mathematician', without a concept of what numbers are.

It's about women actively pandering to men and collaborating with them to destroy women's rights. Turkeys and Christmas. Or internalised misogyny and a failure to grasp the importance of sex based protections. You don't agree. That's fine. Not bothered.

It's not suggesting that you haven't formed the opinion by yourself. It's that the consequences of your opinion will result in other women being fucked over. Which is a pretty shitty thing, especially for a feminist.

Handmaiden doesn't just relate to TWAW it relates to 'sex work is empowering', 'feminism has gone too far and men suffer more now', etc.

Basically any woman who devotes her time to upholding a status quo which advantages males to the detriment of all women is a handmaiden of the Patriarchy.

Perhaps "utter fucking mug" might be a way of saying the same thing that is more preferable for the op?