Confused

I see You still live in the land of "This never happens", Dakinis.

This 'man wandering into the toilet for changing room who isn't 'trans' who will be "kicked out and the police called". Some questions:

1. Who is kicking him out? The girl or woman in there alone that he lay in wait for and assaulted?
2. How does the kicker-out know he's not self-id trans?

How do we tell the ones who are men pretending to be women and then ones who are self identified women?

Exactly the same as we do now. Because we have been living this very scenario since 2004.

Karen White is an example of your 'case by case' basis Dakinis. Convicted rapist, paedophile..Yup pop her (!) in a prison with women and where there are children. Why not? So, Karen had assaulted women within days of being there. Never mind, it's only a few women...

This is just the latest and there will be more, never mind the transwomen - or men claiming to be transwomen - turning up a DV shelters (it's happening), the ones entering women's sports and depriving women of prizes (it's happening), the ones on all-women shortlists (it's happening), the ones winning "woman of the year" awards (it's happened), the ones presenting themselves to undertake cervical smears on women who wanted female HPs (it's happened).

To be naive is unfortunate - to be willing to chuck women under a bus to pacify a small percentage of men demanding validation - and call yourself a feminist. Well, I suppose you can call yourself anything (after all transwomen do) but it's not a description of feminism that I recognise and I've been a feminist since my youth in the 1960s.

What about the destruction of girls' and women's sport, Dakinis ?

Is that all an ok by-product of self-id? Because, y'know, these people with male bodies identify as women so them entirely by-passing the reason sport is sex segregated in the first place is all right, is it?

Not simple, simplistic! and, as I said previously, shows complete disregard for anything anyone posts, a willful blindness to the realities of the situation today.

Dakinis - as many more astute posters have said before - we see you!

How do we tell the ones who are men pretending to be women and then ones who are self identified women?

Dakinis
How do you tell the difference between a man and a pre-op transwoman?

Dakinis please do explain how self ID is going to allow for case by case decisions at the door of every toilet and changing room?

It's very simple.

Today, if a man wandered into a female changing room claiming to be a woman so he could perve on other women he would be kicked out and police called.

If self ID goes ahead and a man wanders into a female changing room claiming to be a woman he will still be kicked out and police called.

Today, if a pre or post op trans woman wishes to use a female changing room she is legally able to under the GRA 2004. Under the current law she is required to live as a woman for two years which means using female facilities before transitioning

If self ID goes ahead and and a pre or post op trans woman wishes to use a female changing room the updated GRA will not make a blind bit of difference.

Conclusion: nothing will change!!

Um

If TWAW there is NO basis for keeping certain (wo)men out of women's prisons.

Either they are women or they aren't.

FWIW the prevailing pro trans approach to the prisons issue is

TWAW
No woman should be forced into a male prison no matter what crime they have committed, as that is a cruel and unusual punishment, prisons are separate male and female for a reason
Cunty women commit sexual and violent offences too

Then we have two schools of thought...

1. Violent women should be managed in the female estate, it's violence in prisons that is a problem, let's focus on stamping that out rather than discriminating against an already highly oppressed group of women and denying them their rights to be housed in prison with other women

1. People who commit sexual offences / DV / violence against women should never be put in the female estate. (The advocates for this do not explain exactly where they should go, and they also seem to have forgotten that while the numbers of women in prison for these crimes are very low, they do exist, and they seem to be saying these cunty women should be locked in with the transwomen who have commited VAWG in some ? other place entirely??????????)

If you put penises before women, then no.

There is no equality when those who say they are women have penises. When special dispensations are made. When their motives are dark. Where a movement attracts rapists and paedophiles who are manipulating children.

I really don't understand any women that are "ok" with putting women and children in harm's way, as Karen White's case showed.

His former girlfriend said he had no interest in transitioning.

Experts have already stated that some men will abuse the rules to exploit the system, as this Spectator piece concludes:

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/07/are-female-prisoners-at-risk-from-transgender-inmates/

'In summary, a representative body for psychologists and the leading expert in the field, speaking for other experts, submitted clear and quite extensive evidence to Parliament suggesting that some male sex-offending criminals have attempted to exploit existing gender-change rules for harmful and illegitimate purposes and that others are likely to attempt to do so in future. '

Taking a sensible approach and looking at each instance on a case by case basis seems fair and reasonable.

That's what's happening at the moment, but it doesn't seem to be working out very well for women. There have been a number of cases (the latest being Karen White) where rapists have been put in female prisons and sexually assaulted the women there.

Having a GRC makes it more likely that a male offender will be placed in a women's prison. Self ID means more male offenders with GRCs, since some will get the GRC purely for the purpose of being transferred to a women's prison.

Who do you think will benefit from self ID, Dakinis? Sex offenders certainly will, but who else?

Women will lose out. Transsexuals (those who already have a GRC, or would be currently eligible) will lose out.

So you are ignoring posters and repeating the same old same old...

Taking a sensible approach and looking at each instance on a case by case basis seems fair and reasonable. Yes, you said that, and a few of us have pointed out a few instances, happening right ow, where that 'reasonable' approach has led to women being harmed.

Most people would not begrudge a transsexual woman who transitioned 30 years ago to use a ladies toilet. Most people would not condone Ian Huntley being put in a female prison. You are comparing apples and oranges there...

Being aware of safeguarding when it comes to female spaces doesn't make a liberal feminist a bigot or a radical feminist a transphobe - it just makes us normal. No, it makes radfems louder and liberal fems more ridiculous the more often they repeat the 'accept and include' speech without actually considering the growing amount of evidence that they are out of date, out of touch and are supporting a new ideology that takes advantage of their 'niceness'.

And I say that as a LibFem with a number of trans friends for way back it the 80s, who only changed her mind about a year ago after a nasty exchange with a non binary personage made me do a bit more reading!

Dakinis please do explain how self ID is going to allow for case by case decisions at the door of every toilet and changing room? Can you sign post me to where this version of self ID is explained in terms of the current white paper/consultations and advising committees and groups?

Because that's the exact opposite of everything the government and everyone else seems to be working on and have in the public sphere that I've read.

no you cannot really be a feminist and centre biological males , even if they identify as black/muslim/white/asian/disabled women.

Case by case is dangerously useless to women who are using a toilet when a man walks in.

I'm not surprised the OP is confused if she thinks the only alternative to radical feminism is welcoming rapists and paedophiles into female spaces.

If you read what libfems post on twitter, or on feminist websites, that's exactly what it means. TWAW and no quarter given.

In your world they should all remain. The paedophiles and the rapists.Because they are women.

Not Datun, that is what rad fems constantly accuse us other feminists of. But no.

Taking a sensible approach and looking at each instance on a case by case basis seems fair and reasonable. Most people would not begrudge a transsexual woman who transitioned 30 years ago to use a ladies toilet. Most people would not condone Ian Huntley being put in a female prison.

Being aware of safeguarding when it comes to female spaces doesn't make a liberal feminist a bigot or a radical feminist a transphobe - it just makes us normal.

I'm not surprised the OP is confused if she thinks the only alternative to radical feminism is welcoming rapists and paedophiles into female spaces. It's not that black and white.

Lesbian being used as an insult for women who do not comply with men / disagree with them

Their crime is that men aren't the most important things in their lives

"prominent heterosexual feminist as a lesbian terf "

Lesbian being used as an insult for women who do not comply with men / disagree with them
So progresssive.

That this is coming from the mouths of women now is horrifying.

"How come transwomen aren't moving in on men's rights groups and demanding to be central there? It would make more sense, as the perceived threat they're always talking about (the one we have to be human shields for) comes from men, not from women. Let them work on educating men to be more accepting of TW in men's spaces."

100% agree.

Feminism for me is for women, and not about being inclusive to men and pandering to their delusions and self-importance. Biology rules.

How come transwomen aren't moving in on men's rights groups and demanding to be central there? It would make more sense, as the perceived threat they're always talking about (the one we have to be human shields for) comes from men, not from women. Let them work on educating men to be more accepting of TW in men's spaces.

Is it possible to be a feminist and have no issue with all inclusive toilets and changing rooms and to believe that trans women are women?

It is possible to not care about single sex provision. To think that there is no problem with males and females sharing hospital wards, prisons, changing rooms etc.

There is no problem with disagreeing with positive discrimination and providing women only shortlist's.

There is a problem with arguing for single sex provision and positive discrimination and then dismantling people's right to distinguish the 2 sexes from each other!