Has Germaine Greer lost the plot?

something along the lines of what you said" does not mean replicate.

And again you miss the point. I didn't say what you had said, yet you thought I did. I made a different point. Which, no I'm not going to make again.

Yes, she's lost the plot on this - or if she hasn't, she's not expressing her views well.

Rape is about four times more likely to result in diagnosable PTSD than combat. I.E. Being raped is four times more psychologically disturbing than going off to a war and being shot at and blown up.

The problem is the attitudes of many men and some women refuse to believe that and no amount of evidence changes their stance. So different ways have to be found for prosecuting this crime - which is where I think GG is coming from. But the way she conveys it is so victim-blaming imo.

She's very fortunate her rape was just "bad sex" and didn't result in PTSD....It irritates the fuck out of me that those who haven't experienced PTSD always minimise its impact which can be analogous to paraplegia- would they do that to road accident victims?

Where did I use the word replicate?

"something along the lines of what you said" does not mean replicate.

What is your point? Why are you accusing regular posters here of not understanding nuance and complexity when the FWR board is one of the only places on the internet where you'll get nuance and complexity?

No, wewant, I didn't replicate what you had said. I made a different point. Which is interesting, considering you're all about nuance.

What on Earth are you on about youlethergo?

I've literally just said something along the lines of what you said.

Who are these people who can't stand complexity and nuance?

Not me and I'm a regular (ish) on these boards.

I'm not going to pretend the kind of feminists here would welcome me as one of them. I'm a women and people who know me think I have 'feminist' ideas. But that doesn't go far enough for the posters on these boards. So I'm speaking to you as someone who isn't one of you.

You don't allow things to be complicated that you want to be simple. You don't allow nuance and complexity from your adversaries. You hold a party line and allow for no grey areas, no deviation. Then Germaine makes statements you'd accept from no one else and only a true feminist would be prepared to dig into the nuance. Because that's apparently now part of feminism.

You should be prepared to challenge yourselves about this. Not in front of the public, obviously. But in some feminist enclave where it's safe to admit you're not perfect.

I find GG very useful as a determinate of whether I spend a lot of time talking feminism with someone - if they write her off without using their brains to dig into what she is saying then I’m pretty certain I’m not going to have a productive conversation.

GG is a heavy-weight intellectual and shouldn’t be underestimated. Do I always agree with her? No. But that doesn’t make her crazy, old, out-of-touch or any of the other crap recently thrown at her.

If you look at the talk I posted the link to you can see and hear how what she has to say will not fit into a convenient sized soundbite and so there is the increasingly lazy (and aggressive) habit of journos and critics to latch onto the first few words of a sentence or paragraph and force an alternative meaning onto them.

This is in addition to trying to force closed questions regarding out of context quotes from work stretching back across half a century, completely ignoring the original meaning and shoehorning words and opinions into her mouth.

When that doesn't fly she is disregarded on social media by being labelled "confused" or presumed diagnosed with "dementia" and a whole host of other ageist and sexist slurs meant to discredit.

I consider this extremely ignorant and rude. She never takes the bait. I think she deals with it better than anyone I know could and keeps her cool regardless. I have immense respect for that.

her complex, nuanced arguments are being portrayed simplistically and stupidly by journalists who are intellectually completely out of their depth with her and simply cannot represent her arguments accurately because they don't understand them That was certainly the case with her talk at Hay... I was there, I know what she said, I heard here inflexions, her stressors.

What was published the day after, and soundly discussed here, was diametrically opposed to what she had actually said.

No.

She hasn't.

She's still as sharp as ever and as ever, her complex, nuanced arguments are being portrayed simplistically and stupidly by journalists who are intellectually completely out of their depth with her and simply cannot represent her arguments accurately because they don't understand them.

Experience and wisdom of all of us older women, the ones who become invisible after 45.

Experience and wisdom

To be fair, only the first term could consistently be applied to Germaine as many long in tooth feminists are happy to agree. It worries me that people could think she speaks for women in general as she is very often mad as a chair.

Are there any mistake free humans?

Certainly, that seems to be the only form of acceptable man.

disorganisedxx absolutely - I think creative people/thinkers tend to make more mistakes than most, if they're brave and allow themselves to do so, because that is how new ground tends to be broken. Without that possibility of failing, all thought runs the risk of becoming safe and reactive.

"nobody has to agree with her, she doesn't even agree with herself sometimes"

I can empathise with her on that! I'm a pain in the arse for the annoying "trollish man habit" of playing devils advocate with my own arguments! Makes me wonder if there is something in the speculation that she is autistic (as I am)

Me n all Nick, I feel like feminism has been taken over by men eradicating women with the help of women.

It really worries me that feminism will be left to the woke.

Are there any mistake free humans?

I seem to remember Greer saying that she liked to provoke people and get them angry, because it then made them think harder.

Yes, she often seems to make crashing mistakes, but I'm so glad there is still someone as fierce and brave and bold as she is out there, holding forth on difficult subjects.

Perhaps the thread title should be changed to "Is this OP Ageist?"

I heard the discussion on radio 4 with Germaine Greer and another younger feminist ( sorry I can't remember her name) on this issue. Greer made me think, challenged me, and made me think about rape in the context of the society we live in. The other speaker basically said rape is awful. Well you know what we all know that and... Thank goodness for Greer, for those saying she is old and hinting at confusion, she was light years ahead of the other younger feminist.

Nickname I suspect that's why I find any conversation with the young, woke fems so bloody irritating. I can only take so much of the fake smile and head tilt response!

According to the very woke daughter of a good friend, I could never be a true feminist as I have been married to the same man for almost 30 years! I asked if pre- marriage shag encounters / 1 night stands counted for anything and she nearly fainted

But I still have no idea what she meant, or what she thinks feminism is!

A lot of older feminists are seen as out of touch dinosaurs by some young, woke feminists.

Experience and wisdom doesn’t cut it with them.

Personally I think GG makes a lot of sense and is worth listening to. You have to think about what she says, and do so in context.

www.aljazeera.com/programmes/headtohead/2018/07/metoo-failed-180717145036789.html

I find the overall lack of respect to GG as shown here really disconcerting. It is an extension of the no debate cult mentality, this idea that if I don't like your opinion I shall bully and insult and threaten you until you bow to my way or else.

She is an intellectual powerhouse and as forthright as any man in public debate which makes her a target for those who prefer women agreeable.

I saw a recent debate of hers where she clearly stated to an objecting audience member that nobody has to agree with her, she doesn't even agree with herself sometimes. That is the point of debate.

We are living in a world where "women" are being reported in the crime stats as rapists, perhaps at this juncture it needs emphasised more than ever that every point of view is relevant, every opinion deserves discussion and "no debate " is not a catch phrase to be proud of.