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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

This is wrong right?

642 replies

DukeOfSussex · 18/09/2018 19:31

If your teenage daughter had her first week at the University of Sussex this week this is what found in her welcome bag.

A Pot Noodle, A tablet of washing detergent, a sim card and an individual sized portion of instant coffee.

AND

A picture of a woman designed to look like she has spunk dripping down her face to sell toothbrushes. "whether you spit or swallow during your twice daily oral regime..."

She'll also find a drinks night event by the Student union being advertised all over campus. It has a picture of a dead eyed half naked woman laying in an empty bath...which advertises what? Fuck knows.

She will also find a copy of the student newspaper in her bag. On the front cover at the very top of the page is an article entitled "Transphobia and toilets". This is discussing the recent words of University of Sussex philosophy professor Kathleen Stock who dared to very (politely) question some aspects of trans theory.

Your daughter, if disabled, will also be concerned to see that some of the disabled toilets have been declared "for all genders". Which is lovely and inclusive but not ideal if you're disabled and need a wee and need to wait for an able bodied non binary male wearing lipstick to go for a shit first.

She will find that the "This Sussex Girl Can" all women only classes are open to all "women, trans gender people and non binary individuals" so just mixed classes basically .

So far so expected of university in general but what upsets me is that people wanted Kathleen Stock's job for having an opinion. She caused students to feel "unsafe" with her very words, but in a world where women are literally unsafe and sexual assault is endemic in universities, Sussex student union didn't think twice before objectifying its female students. If your employer gave you a goody bag with this card in it you could rightfully be making a formal complaint to your HR department. Why is it appropriate for university?

We can't discuss why it's always a woman advertising drinks, or toothbrushes without discussing women and the group of people who actually deal with the real repercussions of being women. It's a bloody joke.Why don't people care about actual sexism, real life objectification of women.

OP posts:
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GColdtimer · 20/09/2018 20:25

Poll results depressing. 53% say it's sexist, 47% say it fine.

Ereshkigal · 20/09/2018 20:09

Lol Grin

Movablefeast · 20/09/2018 20:07

I graduated from Sussex and I am not remotely surprised that a recent graduate knows nothing about human biology.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 20/09/2018 19:42

How odd that all the reports have shown the image except for the Guardian?!

Do they think their readership is too fragile to look at it?

All they have done is got their readers interested to see the pic and pointed them via google to some other news outlets Grin

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 20/09/2018 19:40

What, so it's not just mumsy meanies in the viper's nest that is FWR who found it objectionable? Grin

Thanks for spotting that, BabyTeeth.

BabyTeeth · 20/09/2018 19:31

Brighton Argus report:

www.theargus.co.uk/news/16891702.sexist-toothpaste-ad-is-branded-offensive/

InionEile · 20/09/2018 19:24

"....which are aimed at especially making women safer on nights out."

What's that, @rw280? 'Women' did you say? I don't understand that word. What does 'women' mean? Is it people who menstruate? People who have vaginas? XX chromosomes-holders?

I'm just confused because later you say that not all 'women' have vaginas so I'm not sure what the word 'women' means to you. I certainly hope that your transexlusionary language above does not imply that only ciswomen feel unsafe at night-time. I hope you are familiar with the many many statistics out there that show that trans-identified people are in fact 5,000 times more at risk of assault than any cisgender menstruator - if not, then google it!

And please stop using such transexclusionary language in your posts on here. I find it deeply offensive. Start centering other-gendered individuals in your night-time safety campaigns, you thoughtless privileged cissexist cisgender person, you.

Halfeatentoast · 20/09/2018 18:55

This is, quite simply, horrifying. I have no words.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 20/09/2018 18:55

Go on. Argue with Bowl about science. I'll sell tickets.

Oh goodness yes please

rw please have a science debate with bowl

Pppppplllllleeeeeeaaaaaassssseeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 20/09/2018 18:52

I wonder if rw's lecturers are on MN...

If they are they are keeping very, very quiet about it

Can't think why

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 20/09/2018 18:49

I am fairly positive that dennis does not mate

Ereshkigal · 20/09/2018 18:48

What's so worrying is that men can actually do this stuff and that no one in the whole chain - pitching it, design, the text, printing, packaging, posting, filling goody bags has looked at it and said, "hold on a minute".

It just shows the extent to which the porn culture and misogynistic views of women have such a grasp. And evidently how powerless those working at Brushbox are if they couldn't point out the awfulness of this (I am assuming that women and men with children actually work in the place?) Must be a vile company to work for as this evidently represents their corporate values.

Yes.

Ereshkigal · 20/09/2018 18:44

5. A few of you referenced biology. This argument is as old as time - saying "uh, biology!!!!" clearly shows that you have done zero research into the science behind trans identities.

Even most of the non scientists here have done a shitload more research than you into this sweetie, as you demonstrate by your use of the tedious op ed that Bowl almost predicted (she thought you'd pick the similarly oft plopped Nature one). What's next, the clownfish facebook post?

Go on. Argue with Bowl about science. I'll sell tickets.

nopeni · 20/09/2018 18:39

Also, Universities aren't places where you're just meant "to learn", like it's some passive process that doesn't in itself change you.

They're places to live, study, work and talk with other intellectual people - you'll be taught some stuff, you'll research for yourself, you'll disagree with a lot and you'll grow and become a different person over the years because of it all.

Universities aren't supposed to be safe cosy places where you're never challenged. I'm not sure why they're turning into the next level of childcare.

Rach5ll · 20/09/2018 18:38

Oh god this is fucking grim

Happityhap · 20/09/2018 18:32

can alter their hormones but not enough to be in the range of normal hormone levels for the other sex.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 20/09/2018 18:30

I like this bit:

"Universities are places for anyone to learn, without facing attacks based on their identity - pretty simple"

On a thread about Misogyny ie good old fashioned sex based oppression - which we aren't allowed to talk about any more because biological sex is like soooooooooooooo last season and entirely irrelevant.

Happityhap · 20/09/2018 18:28

There is nothing I've ever heard of where there should be any discrimination or segregation on the basis of 'gender' whatever.

My local council informed me that UK law treats 'sex' and 'gender' as being the same thing.
I asked them to point me to somewhere confirming that and they have not yet done so.
If anyone can confirm or refute that, I'd be very grateful.

Ereshkigal · 20/09/2018 18:22

Still, I'll give you a cookie for listening to the paragraph advice.

Grin
gendercritter · 20/09/2018 18:06

It takes thought sometimes to realise that what's in my head hasn't automatically made it onto the page. Blush I couldn't have more respect for the many incredible mums who take part in this debate here. It makes me angry how little regard society has for women especially after they've given birth. And it's even more depressing when that attitude is evident in another woman who considers herself to be thoughtful and inclusive because she includes men in her feminism, unlike the silly old women of Mumsnet.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 20/09/2018 17:57

It's fine, gendercritter. I kinda guessed you didn't mean it like that. Didn't sound like you. It just really took me aback.

drspouse · 20/09/2018 17:55

I wonder if rw's lecturers are on MN...

gendercritter · 20/09/2018 17:44

I'm sure you didn't mean that the way it sounds

Gosh, no. That was not very sensitively worded at all. Sorry and thank you for flagging that up.

It was supposed to be two separate points. As in a) rw is clearly making assumptions about mums which need addressing because how ridiculous to think mums are stupid/ignorant/out of touch and b) we're a very diverse community of women in any case so don't waste time making assumptions about who you're talking to on here because it's not one homogenous group (I would bet many think MN = white, middle class women who haven't worked in 15 years and who all have 2.4 children)

I should have taken more time over that paragraph, sorry.

disorganisedXX · 20/09/2018 17:36

@rw280

The concern about facilities for disabled people is the most valid one. I completely understand your worries - our society has been built for able-bodied people, and thus has completely exluded people with disabilities from public life. My point was that the gender neutral toilets were purpose built as an addition. As you said, why can't they be an addition - they are! They were built as extras alongside the existing accessible toilets. The reason they are also marked as accessible toilets is because if you're gonna build a bunch of individual toilets, it seems remiss to not make them accessible. There are definitely accessibility issues at Sussex Uni (the library, for one!). I am in no way saying they are perfect, because they are not. But none of the issues stem from the accessible gender neutral toilets.

This from someone studying human rights?!? Thank goodness you finally signed up to mumsnet for the sake of your twitter feed. May I suggest you dedicate a bit of time to understanding more about the lives of the people you are passing off as secondary to your very narrow definition of 'public life' as you put it?

Would you be at all concerned that you are demonstrating a fundamentally disablist attitude and doing it publicly which may prove unwise given your chosen study subject?

Please say yes, please take the time to look into why and please understand that I am taking time out of my life to try to ask you to stop being one of the many who make my family's life harder than it needs to be through ignorance.

This is what an accessible toilet is
This is why they are needed
This is what is happening to the few in existence
This is what you need to stop doing

There but for the grace...

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