Guardian comments opportunity

I read the expression "fuckable pocket" on the trans porn thread earlier and found that appropriate.

DonnaBe
Do you know how babies are made?

A trans woman can’t have a vagina, they can have an open wound which they self dilate, but it’s no vagina.

To be more clear, sex is biological and not a social construct

Correct. Sex is biological. Gender social.

Choosing sex as a way to categorise people is itself a social construct.

You've contradicted yourself - sex is biological, it cannot therefore be chosen. Choosing gender is though a social construct.

HTH

Choosing sex as a way to categorise people is itself a social construct

Yes but in a world where people who are stronger, richer, more powerful and with a vested interest in our exploitation do this a lot, we need to be able to point it out and to organise as a class against it.

Choosing sex as a way to categorise people is itself a social construct.

Well we don't bother categorising humans on that basis for tons of stuff.

But when one category commits 98% of sex attacks and the other category is largely victims, we will then categorise them to keep one off the other, when they're naked and vulnerable.

So trans women are women then? As long as they have vaginas
But they don't have vaginas. They have neovaginas that need dilating daily, grow hair inside and look/taste/smell nothing like a vagina, nor do the neovaginas have any reproductive function. Some are made from bowel segments, some from inverted penile tissue. Still not a vagina, your point is invalid.
I could have some bone grafted to my skull, shape it into a point, it might even fuse with my skull and become an organic part of me, it still doesn't make me a unicorn.

Choosing sex as a way to categorise people is itself a social construct.

Why wouldn't you categorise people by sex? It is critical in some things. Why would you categorise by claimed subjective personal feelings?

Let’s leave out trans people for the purpose of this discussion.

Why? It's you bringing up intersex, irrelevantly, to push your agenda.

To be more clear, sex is biological and not a social construct. Choosing sex as a way to categorise people is itself a social construct.

I was very pleased to see Hadley Freeman write a GC column a while back. I bet Deborah Orr would have had something to say but of course they fired her...

Catherine Bennett has made vaguely GC comments too and mentioned the San Francisco library exhibit as threats and abuse against women. She copped some abuse herself, predictably.

happydappy2
donnab how would you describe a third sex?
No reference to gender just sex.

I don’t. And I don’t know what you mean by gender. You seem to be using it to refer to the social construction of sex roles.

I go with Sartre and De Beauvoir. Existence precedes essence.

It’s humans that define the categories we put ourselves into. They’re no t defined in nature.

OK, sex is a biological fact. But choosing sex as a central category in relation to human conduct and experience is a political act. I’m not saying is incorrect.

Earlier societies used skin colour in that way, a categorisation that is now denigrated.

So basically I wouldn’t define a 3rd so.

You’re free to see the world how you want to. I’m just trying to tease out some of the issues.

Please ignore the derailer!

is there no more to a female reproductive system than a vagina?

an interesting position

😐

So trans women are women then? As long as they have vaginas

No transwoman has a vagina. Do you know what a vagina is?

DonnaBe a neovagina is not a reproductive system.

To say "Your sex is defined by your reproductive system, even if it is incomplete" means that, for instance, a man who loses his balls in an accident is still a man, or a woman who has had a hysterectomy is still a woman.

It’s literally difficult to define women and men in a way that includes everyone in the category they think they should be in. Even if you exclude trans people, it’s hard to do.

OldCrone seems to have made a pretty decent stab at it without too much trouble. Anyway, you didn't answer the question: how are you able to assert that transwomen are women if you can't define what a woman is? That's just logically preposterous.

Transwomen have Male gonads. Therefore Male.

Transwomen don't have vaginas. (That's introduction to biology.) Is a prosthetic leg a real leg?

Are you saying that being intersex is linked to transgenderism, Donna?

Even those with chromosome disorders which means they aren't norma xx or xy can be categorised as Male or female. (That's biology 102 )

oldcrone

Your sex is defined by your reproductive system, even if it is incomplete

So trans women are women then? As long as they have vaginas

Hi Donna,
I’d say sex by chromosomes (save for a few intersex people)
As for gender-fill your boots! Have as many as you like!

I am more than happy to say there are 100 “genders” but “woman” isn’t one of them.

Donna there are indeed two categories of people in relation to sex yes. Biology 101. Bucketloads of gender categories, but only two sex ones - commonly known as male and female.

donnab how would you describe a third sex?
No reference to gender just sex.