Women on the left are responsible for austerity

It suggests that you believe the word of official representatives more than regular women...?

Why can you take WP at their word that motives were "commitment to anti-racist principles and in solidarity with Muslim women", but not take women here's word that they disagree?

I've noted multiple rather classist comments about Lisa's writing style in this thread.

Lisa also makes the point that working class speak in a way that's different to the middle class and that causes problems. Lisa is educated and still seems to have issues getting the point across. I find her articulate but in a northern way which is normal to me. However culturally I don't think this is universally understood in this country. Middle class communication skills are more dominant in politics.

If you consider Lisa HAS skills and is still dismissed for not making a point in the correct manner or correct language think about what that means for people who lack that.

The presentation style is thought of as more important than the content. People are not listening to crucial points because they don't make a proper effort to listen to underlying points.

What did you craft you laptop from CarrotyO? Foraged twigs and acorns?

I think my interpretation is entirely accurate, actually.

Yeah deep, I was a bit confused there too.

Yes chilli. Thank you for that wonderful explanation.

Well, Carroty, that is not the world you advocated for, though. You were all hunting and gathering...

As there totes isn't an issue with disabilities being dealt with in anarcho-huntergathering... Can I just check, how do I forage electricity for my wheelchair?

Have people ever heard the phrase - debate ideas not people? Can we apply it here please?

Except when it comes to Posie Parker who is a racist homophobe. We must all publicly denounce her to prove we're not racist homophobe!

It is too early in the morning for this thread, I'm off to forage some gin

I think that looking into shifting to more sustainable systems is absolutely something we should be doing. I don't that in practical terms that could possibly mean returning to a hunter/gatherer lifestyle for the majority of humans.

That all makes perfect sense, chilli.

We're fucked either way TBQH.

Best try to cushion the collapse by lessening the birth rate (contraception/girls' education). Tackling infant & maternal mortality... basic simple but modern public health measures like vaccination, hygiene & midwifery training. Ppl will have fewer children as they won't have to overcompensate. Growing perennial crops & cropping trees that strenghten soil structure, rather than annuals like corn wheat & soya that degrade the soil & require huge fossil fuel fertiliser inputs. So basically permaculture. Semi-wild the grassland with grazing animals that rebuild soils with dung, also sequestrates carbon from the atmosphere. Cattle farting methane is mainly a problem with grain fed animals. Bring salmon back to the rivers... you used to be able to hear the thunder of salmon miles away a couple of hundred yrs ago.

It's not an either/or dichotomy... bison/salmon vs humans, it's both/and. Healthy bison & salmon populations (&the eco systems they thrive in) means healthy stable human communities, that don't rely on the unsustainable draw down of natural resources, soil, river systems & animal populations.

It's not the stark choice between iPads & Gap sweatshirts vs scratching around in the dirt for nuts & berries outside your cave. It's intelligently using what we have (medicine/tech etc) and switching our subsistence needs over to a permanent system of food/clothing/goods production.

Have people ever heard the phrase - debate ideas not people? Can we apply it here please?

Ok, let's do that: Purity politics are utter shite and the application of them by a small fraction of the WPUK to predictably expose rather vulnerable associated women to the aggression of what can only be called Brwonshirts in Drag is unacceptable imo.

i think you’ve explained it more clearly, red.

But it highlights two things for me. The issue raised by the Deptford People’s Project, for example, that it is unhelpful for middle class people to bring their perspective to problems they don’t understand - that’s its counter productive.

And there’s an undercurrent that doesn’t quite sit right with me about blaming women for something I’m not sure was ever in women’s hands to fix.

But thank you for the clarification, I understand the point better now.

But you don't appear to have understood the ideas that she was trying to express.* Perhaps you could engage with those instead.

*(You've also called women who disagree with you racist in the other thread, and implied that disagreement with you means they don't want women to be empowered in this one, which doesn't exactly come across as a stunning example of good faith and fairness).

SophoclesTheFox

Google brought me to ink blot tests which I had heard of, I just didn’t know the big word like everything else on this board

Maybe we can bring back carrier pigeons, deep, or train ravens like on GOT.

Yeah, that might work. GOT is a high-tech world of agriculture, though. Not sure the hunter-gatherer stuff allows for luxuries like ravens. And where would those ravens return to? Pretty sure hunter-gatherer lifestyles are generally nomadic. So...

I think one of her points is that trans issues come directly out of an erosion of women's ability to speak their truth and that started with working class women in austerity. Their reality didn't fit the politics of the time so it was actively suppressed. It led to a general undermining of social fail safes for women. The trans rights thing is only possible because of that and has happened because there is a greater expansion of suppression of reality that disproportionately affects women. Women are best placed and able to see this. But middle class women were part of the suppression process and were complicit through their lack of action. They didn't want to acknowledge working class problems and wanted to protect their own status so wrote off working class women - at times as bigoted or stupid or lazy (insert your own dehumanising language). It's the same dynamic as the one that lead to the rise of nazi Germany (which is why she calls many of those on the left she feels enabled it, facists). A culture of blame to deflect from the actual problems facing society in which a particular class are effectively deliberately marginalised and harmed. She highlights how far from socialist principles this really is.

And she's not wrong on many counts.

People don't want to face up to this so react badly to it being spelt out so bluntly.

She is not right about everything but she's calling it pretty damn well, in my opinion.

But OP, you seem to not realise that for society as it is, right now, to return to hunter gatherer, will require and result in the deaths of billions of people.

We covered that. But it's ok, ''cause we need to make room for other species, anyway. Like bisons.'' 'Cause the remaining people will need to hunt something and stuff.