Discussing GC issues with DP.

If you affirm them, give them a community where they are hero worshiped, given puberty blockers, and surgery, how many do you think will desist?

Indeed.

They did when there wasn't blind affirmation.

If you affirm them, give them a community where they are hero worshiped, given puberty blockers, and surgery, how many do you think will desist?

I understood that around 80% of girls identifying as trans change their minds by age 18.

That's a lovely clear explanation, FermatsTheorem. I think most parents will agree with you. The ROGD study was very interesting. We've been hearing about social contagion, with clusters of transmen appearing in schools, for some time.

As a mother I'm very aware how long it takes for DC to develop judgement. The brain doesn't fully mature until you're 25.

So the idea that perfectly healthy DC in their early teens are considered able to consent to puberty blockers is appalling to me. Treatment that destroys a child's fertility is normally only given if it's a matter of life or death. That's where the phoney suicide claims come in. And yet the Tavistock reports one suicide in 10 years.

Interesting that some people are trying to frame the debate as being about children's rights.
Sterilising children is despicable.

"because, let's face it, it doesn't really affect him."

Isn't that a problem with so many issues re men and women's problems? But yes, in essence this is the "why can't you just let them be, it doesn't affect you argument". If you proceed to answer that yes it does - "fear mongering" and "hateful".

Girls are conditioned to not make a fuss and be 'nice'. They don't believe that the moon is made of green cheese thought.

" girls would just "accept" that trans girls are girls not boys so it's totally fine for them to share changing rooms and accommodation on overnight trips and also it's not the same as having "mixed sex" changing rooms because trans girls are girls and not boys."

Woah. He seems to have swallowed the kool aid and then some. And interesting that he thinks girls will just "accept" it. Sorry, but not sure what that says about him, but it ain't positive. I wonder what he would think if this affected him personally.

I was interested in that survey, so I had a quick look. Couple of points: It’s a sample of about 150 from a single clinic (they started with 610, not clear whether those surveyed were happier or less so than those who dropped out).

All participants were male. Has a similar follow up been done for females?

The report summary says surgery, but not what surgery - I’ll have a look for the original paper.

Didn't I read that suicide rates were higher post transition?

Yes a few people regret transitioning, I believe about 5%. The current safeguards in place are enough to prevent vulnerable adults (yes we are talking about adults, children are not routinely mutilated as one would be lead to believe on here).

I don't think the majority of people who report significantly improved quality of life after transitioning should have been prevented from doing so by the GC campaign.

www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/321258.php

Dakinis - what do you think the alcoholic says to the family member who pours away their drink? Do you really think they say "oh, yeah, you're right, I'm an alcoholic, off to the Priory with me tomorrow." Or do you think they say "What the bloody hell do you think you're doing? I'm not an alcoholic. I just have the odd glass socially."

Rewind a few years - what do you think the teenager says when you challenge them on some self-destructive piece of behaviour? Smoking, or bunking off school. Do they say "oh yes, mum, you're so right, I will reform my ways forthwith." Or do they say, Kevin-the-teenager style "You don't UNDERSTAAAAAAND."

A few years earlier - your child, chocolate round their mouth. "Did you eat the last slice of cake." "No, wasn't me, must have been the dog..."

A teenager comes to you saying "I'm trans, I want a double mastectomy as soon as I'm old enough." You know they've got a history of self-harm, past sexual abuse, possibly autistic. Do you say "oh well, I'm sure you know your own mind"? Or do you sit them down and say "I really think we should explore why you feel this way"?

Your post doesn't make any sense, Dakinis. I've read it three times. Are you still talking about children and, if so, what do you mean? If not, ditto.

So why cannot trans individuals recognise the good intentions? Why do they feel threatened? Why do they keep insisting they know their own minds better than a random GC feminist does? Why do they push to have their gender identities recognised when they could just keep quiet and wait for a cure?

You're still talking about children here, are you?

Usually when adult A tells adult B they are doing something for their own good, adult B can recognise the good intention behind it.

The adult who pours away the drink of an alcoholic, who forces the mentally unwell individual to see a GP, who hides the addict's drugs. All this is understandable tough love.

So why cannot trans individuals recognise the good intentions? Why do they feel threatened? Why do they keep insisting they know their own minds better than a random GC feminist does? Why do they push to have their gender identities recognised when they could just keep quiet and wait for a cure?

The current attitude towards trans kids is how people treated gay youth 30 years ago.

Dakanis - we GC feminists agree with this statement. The way these young kids are being medicated and encouraged to have surgery so that they can conform to gender stereotypes is scarily similar to gay conversion therapy of old.

Dakinis

Your sneery picking out of my comment and response This is exactly what my church leader used to say who was a big fan of gay conversion therapy. is par for the TRA course, to be honest.

I've spent my professional life advocating for children who have suffered some of the most appalling abuse imaginable and I take great exception to your implication that my (and others') fears for the mutilation of children - from younger and younger ages - based on TRA ideology that tells them gender constructs we've spent years fighting against mean they should mutilate their bodies permanently - is NOT based purely around the safeguarding of vulnerable children.

This comment is also relevant and I endorse it:

Its ridiculous to equate transgenderism to homosexuality and I actually find it very offensive since transgenderism is by far, in extreme, the most direct and serious homophobia I've ever experienced in my life as a lesbian.

Me TOO.

Jacky if we're talking paedophile vicars then yes you are right, but I was talking about homosexuality which is completely unrelated.

Dakinis "There was plenty of pearl clutching about poor innocent boys and girls being violated by disgusting perverts. "

Given revelations about child sex abuse scandals involving boys and girls, maybe that "pearl clutching" was justified, after all?

Exactly the same situation here, OP. His brand of feminism holds that women are basically the same as men, therefore he assumes that we want to be treated the same as men. He just doesn't relate to what the lived experience of a girl/ woman is, and that we do sometimes need special treatment in order to be liberated.

He considers that sex separation is papering over the cracks in the system, rather than fixing the problems.

He did concede that noone should be pressuring lesbians into sexual relationships with transgender women, but generally is disappointed in me for displaying such bigotry, and lack of concern for an oppressed minority, when he had previously thought of me as open minded.

Dakins so you don’t think that lying to children by telling them they can change sex is a problem? Turning them into lifelong medical patients, giving them medication that is untested for this use and can render them sterile, that’s fine, is it? Encouraging the surgical removal of healthy body parts? All at an age when they can’t possibly understand the full ramifications of these decisions, that’s all tickety-boo, is it?

Gender critical feminists care a lot about gender-non-conforming children - after all, a lot of them used to be gender-non-conforming children. Luckily they weren’t sterilised or had double mastectomies - quite important when you hit your 20s and 30s and start to think about having children. Such a shame some children are having that choice ripped away from them by those who care about them so much, isn’t it?

Dakinis do you not see the way in which current trans ideology is harmful to women? It seeks to redefine what being a woman even means, reinforces damaging gender stereotypes and erases the right of women to have same sex spaces. It isn't remotely comparable to the fight for gay rights. In fact it is appallingly homophobic.

Just sitting on the urge to shake people while saying 'Oh FFS talk sense and wake up!' is disadvantaging me, right now. I've just had an email with gender pronouns all over the bottom of it and the sign-off 'Mx'. I don't CARE what your gender is, ducky, I want to know if you've done the work.

My problem with trans issues is the way that women are so rapidly and almost gleefully excluded. Don't say this, don't ask questions, don't go into the loos if you're bothered by males being there, don't stand for election unless you say TWAW, don't say anything that could get your kids targeted, don't expect to compete on a level playing field.

It disadvantages women so quickly. And some men are so pleased about it.

Hope your DH is just unthinking rather than one of the resentful types.