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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Visit to my MP (Plaid Cymru)

40 replies

PinaGrigio · 14/09/2018 15:31

As promised, I'm reporting back on my visit to my Plaid Cymru MP to ask about their position on self-ID as mentioned in this previous thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3349086-Plaid-Cymry-candidate-faces-disciplinary-for-stating-no-women-have-penises?pg=1

I only had 15 mins so I'd prepped beforehand to focus. It was me, DH (also concerned), my MP (male) and his assistant/caseworker (female). It was a really good chat, and we overran our slot as we were so busy talking about the issues.

My MP wasn't particularly well up on the details, as he has a different portfolio. However, his wife is GC, and so he was already concerned about the implications for women's rights and the encroachment on sex-segregated spaces presented by the proposals. My key points to him focused on:

  • the safeguarding issues posed by self-ID and how it was going to be possible in future to distinguish between a predator exploiting the opportunity and someone with gender dysphoria ('Schroedinger's transperson' was the phrase I used)
  • implications for service provision in schools, healthcare, prisons, services to the elderly, women's sport, leisure facilities
  • implications for data monitoring, such as equal pay, and service planning, such as screening
  • the somewhat dubious background of the key proponents of self-ID (Bradley, Challenor, Lord, Fae, and others) and what possible reason such individuals might have for wanting to reduce safeguarding around women's spaces
  • the impact on groups such as observant Muslim and Jewish women and their access to services if self-ID goes through
  • the fact that all the concerns raised so far by GC women about the possible dangers of self-ID are coming true (eg the stats on changing room assaults, plus Karen White et al in prisons)
  • finally (!) the number of politically homeless GC women in Wales who would probably vote PC if they got off the fence and made positive statements about the importance of women's rights and the dangers of self-ID. I also cited the Pink News survey where only 18% had been in favour. I also noted the case of Anne Greagsby and suggested he had a look at the Twitter comments/reaction, which were not reflecting well on PC. Interestingly, he has openly endorsed Adam Price in the Plaid leadership contest, not Leanne Wood, so I did point out that LW's statements on 'outdated biology' and the TWAW mantra were not helping the PC popularity levels amongst women voters.

He pretty much fell off his chair at the case of Pippa Bunce and her part-time 'identifying as a woman' and I also highlighted to him the LibDem comment about how Parliament could in future be 50% men and 50% self-ID'd women, ie men. DH had come with me which was v helpful because I was able to introduce him as 'my wife', despite the fact that DH was rocking a hefty set of sideburns and chin stubble....but it made the point quite effectively. And it is Man Friday, after all, so I was clearly a man.

So, it was a v positive conversation, but I'll be waiting to see if anything happens as a result before I make up my mind finally on who to vote for. He's promised to go and talk to Helen Mary Jones about the issue, and I also offered to speak to his colleague(s) if necessary, such as Liz Saville-Roberts, who's the Westminster PC women's lead (I think). I also suggested he speak to organisations such as WPUK and FairPlay for Women, and noted that David TC Davies (whom he knows) had done so. He asked about the Greens' position on this so I referred back to the Challenor debacle and the flak that Caroline Lucas was taking for agreeing to meet with WPUK. I did also note that a number of people, including Labour MPs, felt that they couldn't speak openly about their concerns on this because of the climate of fear and that as far as I could see, a lot of other MPs were in the same boat.

Apologies for the epic post, but we covered a lot of ground in a short time. Fingers crossed......

OP posts:
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Mwnci123 · 19/09/2018 19:20

Adam Price is worse on self ID than Leanne I think. He wrote this piece for Nation:
nation.cymru/opinion/wales-wont-be-free-until-our-lgbt-citizens-are-also-free/
Featuring those TRA classics: conflating current debate with section 28 protests; uncritically and unscientifically generalising Stonewall's survey to the whole population; leaping from high reported levels of distress to an affirmation of GRA reform with no rationale as to why the latter would improve the former. He doesn't even acknowledge the issues critics of self ID and gender ideology have about privacy, safeguarding, sexism and misogyny. All just 'smears'.
Interestingly, he seems to know what a woman is when he's telling her she needs a man to help her do her job properly:
nation.cymru/opinion/a-co-leadership-model-is-the-way-forward-for-plaid-cymru/

TittyGolightly · 18/09/2018 18:26

Adam Price supported Leanne Wood's anti-woman statement

Bollocks. He was stood next to me in the Bay on Sunday. If I’d have known I’d have pushed him in.

RoxytheRexy · 18/09/2018 18:20

All sounds good though Pina

Yes of course you can quote me. Only just seen your reply now

PinaGrigio · 18/09/2018 18:10

Just to confirm that I have indeed followed up to my MP with the links I promised, including quotes from others about their concerns on the PC policy here.

Mwnci, entirely possible - as you say, he's a lovely guy and I think that's why I was so heartened to get a hearing, as I respect him a lot as a v good constituency MP. He only mentioned his wife in passing just at the start of the conversation, but if you think it would be wiser, I'm v happy to ask MNHQ to edit the post to remove the references to her in my OP and other posts.

Like you, I don't quite understand why LW is so intent on self-ID, and have had a number of conversations with friends who are big fans of hers as to why this might be. The kindest view I've come to is that she hasn't really thought through the potential issues and impact of self-ID, and tbf she's not the only politician in that position. Be interesting to see the outcome of the PC leadership contest as to whether that changes anything.

OP posts:
Datun · 17/09/2018 01:29

Bloody well done PinaGrigio. Fantastic stuff.

Mwnci123 · 16/09/2018 23:18

Hi OP, interesting feedback. I'm pretty sure we have the same MP, who I like very much. The information you've given is very identifying of him, which I know shouldn't matter, but it could impact on his wife's privacy.
I don't know what to make of Leanne Wood's support for self ID. I believe that she is committed to social justice in a real and heartfelt way, but I also feel that her stance is to some extent about chasing the youth vote. At this point in time that may be the right call for her in terms of political expediency, though I would rather she took a gender critical
stance/ at worst kept well out of it. I'm impressed that Helen Mary Jones has stayed true to her principles on returning to frontline politics, despite the defamation and hostility she's faced.

failingatlife · 15/09/2018 13:49

*MSP rather though my Labour MP didn't reply either Angry. Both are white men in their 60s who totally do not believe this bs but too cowardly to stand up for their female voters Angry

failingatlife · 15/09/2018 13:46

swaggyotter my SNP MP
didn't even bother to reply to me Angry. The SNP are a lost cause & I fear Scotland will lead the way in Self ID in the UK.

The general public here seem entirely unaware of the whole issue. Not one person I have raised it with had a clue. Every one of them couldn't believe such nonsense is really happening. Luckily they all completed the Scottish consultation. My next job is to get them to do the current one.

BlinkingHeckWA · 15/09/2018 05:42

Pina, you can quote me too.

I am politically homeless. I have never voted for PC, but I will if they change their party line on self ID. Leanne Wood is damaging the party and has lost respect from quite a few mums in my area. A few of whom have voted for PC in the past.

Thank you for taking the plunge (cheesy pun for Man Friday) and discussing this difficult issue.

seafret · 14/09/2018 23:17

Thank you Pina!! Star

Carrrotsandcauliflower · 14/09/2018 22:56

MP

Carrrotsandcauliflower · 14/09/2018 22:55

I love your post, would you mind if I nick the basis of it to make letters to my Mo and local councillors? If there’s any detail you can add, for eg I tried to look up the story for the various dodgy proponents and couldn’t find some- I’ve come to all this quite late in the day. Smile

SirVixofVixHall · 14/09/2018 22:15

Well don Pina. I would vote Plaid if they spoke any sense on this . As you mentioned, they have the excellent Helen Mary Jones. Wood is a disaster though, totally lacking in intelligent thought on gender issues.

BoreOfWhabylon · 14/09/2018 19:38

Oh well done Pina! Excellent job.

PinaGrigio · 14/09/2018 19:37

Adam Price supported Leanne Wood's anti-woman statement
record.assembly.wales/StatementOfOpinion/102

Yes, I know, oldcrone, which is why I'm hoping the leadership contest is the right time to help push them in another direction. I'm encouraged by what my MP said, but actions will speak louder than words on this one for me, so if PC maintain their current position, it'll be a no from me at the ballot box.

I v much hope my MP's wife is on here Grin

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 14/09/2018 19:26

Well done Pina! Sounds really productive.

AndhowcouldIeverrefuse · 14/09/2018 19:23

Well done OP. Sounds like his wife could be a mumsnetter Grin

OldCrone · 14/09/2018 19:03

Interestingly, he has openly endorsed Adam Price in the Plaid leadership contest, not Leanne Wood

Adam Price supported Leanne Wood's anti-woman statement
record.assembly.wales/StatementOfOpinion/102

TorchesTorches · 14/09/2018 18:41

I meant Jeremy Corbyn critical above, for clarity!

TorchesTorches · 14/09/2018 18:40

Thanks for updating on this. I am a big lurker on these pages. Inspired by this, I just emailed my mp, giving a few paragraphs of background info i gained by reading up on these boards over the last few months, and asked for her stance (she is labour, but JC critical). will await response (if any....)

PinaGrigio · 14/09/2018 17:55

Thank you everyone for your kind words. Must admit I was very, very nervous before we went in, hence having notes so I didn't burble.

But also a massive THANK YOU to posters here because having this GC resource in FWR made the task of organising my thoughts and data/stats much, much easier. There had been a previous thread about how to approach meeting your MP which I found particularly helpful just in terms of what would be useful to them.

Prawn I promised to email him as a follow-up so will also be including links etc in an email. I had listed the key stats on paper (such as the PN survey stat) so I had them to hand and I'd definitely recommend it. Roxy, would you mind if I quote you generically in that email as an example of a voter PC could attract from Labour?

I also referred several times to my sources so he knew these were genuine data and from verifiable sources. Forgot to mention I signposted him as well towards Janice Turner, James Kirkup, and Andrew Gilligan, plus suggested he look at articles by transwomen with concerns about self-ID such as Kristina Harrison and Debbie Hayton.

Glad to hear others have had success with their MPs as well, though sorry to hear you were ignored, theswaggyotter. I am lucky in that I'm not working atm so had the time to go and meet my MP. I am not sure what reaction I'd have got if it had just been email - it's always easier to ignore people who aren't right in front of you.

I did use an analogy of how he would feel about English people moving to Wales (we're English btw), draping themselves in Welsh flags, putting on a Welsh accent and then telling him we knew better than him what Welshness was and how all references to Welsh people and specifically Welsh issues had to include and be centred around English people/England as to do otherwise would be English-phobic......I think he got the point Grin

OP posts:
Prawnofthepatriarchy · 14/09/2018 17:34

Sounds like a really productive meeting, PinaGrigio. Well done! Star

I will copy some of your points if I get round to seeing my own MP. Not in Wales so slightly different.

I keep meaning to arrange a meeting but am worried I might waffle, so need to plan it all out.

I thought I might create an email with links in it before I go in, then at the close of the meeting tell her I'll send her an email providing evidence of all the points I've made. That would provide hard fact to support my claims. She might just accept what I say but if she has any doubts or wants to contact any colleagues, she'll have it all to hand.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 14/09/2018 17:28

Congrats on successful consciousness raising

ImPreCis · 14/09/2018 17:27

Ah well, that went well (Not). First available appointment listed is June 18.....surgeries held monthly apparently.

theOtherPamAyres · 14/09/2018 17:26

Thank you for the checklist !

I'll use it at my own meeting later this month.