Can we talk about why members of the cabinet are too scared to talk about self ID?

The truth is that success in politics is all about how many people you can get to support you. As long as you can show that you appeal to a broad range of people, your party will support and promote you. If you lose the crowd, you’re toast. For women politicians in particular, they’ll have got where they are with a good deal of male patronage (because men still run the show in political parties). If they lose popular support, their patrons will abandon them and there will be no way back.

The difficulty with speaking out on an emotive and divisive topic is that you risk not just losing a big chunk of your potential support, but that those who turn against you will take it very personally and the negativity will reach people who weren’t particularly engaged in the original issue. It’s very risky.

The political placing of this issue makes it more complicated. It’s very hard for Labour women to speak out because it appears to go against so much of the progressive politics they stand for. The atmosphere is so nasty in the Labour Party at the moment, and the treatment of their women so terrible, you can’t blame them for not speaking out.

The Conservatives are different, but are similarly terrified of not standing up for oppressed groups because of their past opposition to things like gay rights.

The one woman who is really there on her own terms and would be able to build a cross-party dialogue on this is Caroline Lucas. But, again, she relies for her support on a group of voters who are fully signed up to the TRA agenda.

It’s not that none of our politicians agree with the Mumsnet view. But they would e threatening the source of their power if they spoke out. You can deride them for being cowardly if you like, but the calculation will be that if they lose their seat, the Tories or Labour will win instead and that would be disastrous. Better to keep your mouth shut and keep the Tories in/ get them out.

disorganised
Yes. That is why DH finds her infuriating. But I am pretty sure she wont DO anything until she is sure she is on firm ground. And on this issue there is so much smoke, mirrors and noise that you can't see the ground.

I lost all potential interest in May the minute she straight face announced that "transwomen are women and not mentally ill" or words to that effect.

Throwing half of Britain under the bus.

I remember an older feminist telling me how promising it was when Thatcher got in and the absolute horror that followed realising that she too didn't give a damn about women despite being one.

I find Theresa May an interesting politician. I know that I am in a minority, perhaps of one. DH finds her infuriating.

Not for nothing did Cameron and his crew apparently nickname her "the submarine". She survived for a very very long time as Home Secretary during difficult times (in charge of immigration in the hayday of Nigel Farage and ISIS) in a new social media age, whilst socially and generationally different from Cameron, Boris and pals. Yes catches were dropped, but the fact that none were career ending was a huge achievement. She was then the acceptable compromise candidate despite, unlike Thatcher, not having a heavyweight male supporter. And, so far, she has survived, despite holding in the biggest poison chalice of modern political times.

I am personally distrustful of the shiney saviours: Blair, Trump, Macron, Boris, Cameron, and oh-Jeremy Corbyn. I am not sure what May stands for. But I appreciate her style.

She will go submarine on this. There may be a few baby-step indicators from individuals within the Cambinet that the Kool-Aid is still in the fridge, and regular signaling from the Mail that self-ID is not acceptable to the masses. But no action - either way.

I can believe that cabinet members are afraid to speak out.
Have you ever had a rl conversation about it? If you move in woke circles it’s akin to saying paedophilia shouldn’t be illegal or homosexuality is wrong. My MP was welcoming, interested and would be immediately deselected if she publically offered the mildest support.

I wish the bloody Tankies would bugger off and form their own party.

My thoughts precisely. And I include the democratic centralism in the TUC that led to the self-ID motion passing in that.

I read something on Twitter last night that of course I can’t find now, but made me more determined to speak up. Something like, ‘in 50 years time, when everyone is looking back and going ‘how did we let that happen?’ I want to know that I did what I could.’

I wish the bloody Tankies would bugger off and form their own party.

Tory heads will be firmly under the parapet on this, as Brexit is their issue du jour. (And then some.) Their standard tactic for dealing with Labour, since Corbyn was elected, is to let Labour destroy itself from within, without their hands on the dagger. They don't need the trans-shouties creating noise.

The consultation will finish, and nothing will happen. It would not be priority legislation anyway with both both Brexit and a world economic slowdown ahead.

Come the election though there will be great Tory glee as they will be able to point out the implications of mad Labour Council and Labour aligned organisations' policies. A vote for Labour will be voting to accept the loss of women's protected status. Labour supporting women, like Jews, will find themselves between a rock and a hard place. Unless the moderate split from Labour happens before then, and organises itself pretty quickly. Which I don't think will happen.

Have you read what Victoria Atkins said about being cautious when treating children? The trans lobby attacked her when she was extremely moderate

deepwatersolo wrote: I do believe that many politicians don't want to fall out of the good graces of some powerful lobbies that can help in all kinds of ways (political career, post-politics jobs, investment opportunities... you name it).

Gah, you're right. I'd overlooked this. There'd be no chance of a lucrative non-Exec directorship in banks/finance industry for a Cabinet Minister who fronted up on this issue. Pip/Phillip Bunce of Credit Suisse comes to mind - and CS's policies. And there must be many other institutions with similar.

If a big name Tory were to go on the record as being opposed to self-ID I think it would help their career more than harm it. If they're Labour otoh I wouldn't put it past the party to have them deselected.

Deep - I now have that scene from Scandal going through my head where Olivia Pope dishes out the envelopes.

Haha. But, seriously, I do believe that the transagenda is supported by big money (Pritzker, the Soros Open Society foundation, Big Pharma I guess,...) that sets the tone, so I do believe that many politicians don't want to fall out of the good graces of some powerful lobbies that can help in all kinds of ways (political career, post-politics jobs, investment opportunities... you name it).

If Kirkup had had that answer from a Labour Shadow Minister, I'd understand. Labour are scared of being de-selected and replaced with a preferred Momentum bro (if they're under threat, this will happen anyway, so they've little to lose).

But a Conservative? They would appeal to their heartlands by making this about free speech. Unless misogyny runs so deeply that they know their core voters' loathing of women and political progress is so strong they'd sooner cede free speech that be seen to do something that centres women.

You need one or two brave people to speak out and others will follow.

David Davies seems to speak out. Or at least, has defended WPUK if I remember rightly? And someone else met with them - Barry something? Hasn't made a jot of difference so far.

I'm not arguing against you, I'm as bloody frustrated as everyone else. I also think a lot of politicians are far too distracted, hobbled, whatever - by Brexit, and that will obscure this issue. Davies has bolloxed up his part of that so I guess he has nothing to lose by making nice with the worried ladies.

Can we look at the timetable of issues for the govt, maybe? As I understand it, the GRA consultation closes in October, hence we feel like a big push is needed right now. But what's the timescale on getting a result, and what happens next? Brexit comes to a head in March next year - could it be that MPs are waiting to dispatch that (or have been told to say nothing), and kick the GRA into the long grass because everyone will be looking elsewhere? Could it be a "stall til you're blue in the face and hope it goes away" tactic? After all, there is no impetus to change the status quo other than "being nice to lobbyists".

What am I missing here?

Deep - I now have that scene from Scandal going through my head where Olivia Pope dishes out the envelopes.

Seriously. I wonder if they think they can ignore it to avoid losing votes if there is another election soon. However if the Tories came out more GC they would hoover up alot of votes. Many a disgruntled ex-labour would hold their nose and vote for women's rights. Or at least abstain.

Can we talk about why members of the cabinet are too scared to talk about self ID?

My bet is on some career destroying pictures or acts of any kind (might even be insider trading or taking some bribe) sitting in some nice little vault.

Gulag - this is at the crux of the issue. Cabinet ministers should not be afraid to discuss this and they should be embarrassed by their silence.

Viking's insinuation seems to be that Kirkup is making it up, which there doesn't seem to be any evidence for.

I think it's fairly obvious that politicians are too intimidated to speak out. Look at what happens to anyone who speaks out on this topic - the abuse piled on Graham Linehan, for example, or even on JK Rowling for the crime of "liking" an article arguing that rapists don't belong in a women's prison. We know that female MPs in particular are regularly subjected to rape and death threats for expressing an opinion on almost anything.

But at some point the tide will turn. You need one or two brave people to speak out and others will follow.

I'm sure they're scared. Everyone's scared. We have thread after thread about it.

And then we're stuck on this seesaw of blaming them for not stepping forward, but understanding why they don't.

However this is a cabinet minister. It's their job. They are an elected individual who represents the public. Including women, for God's sake. Over half the population.

They don't have to stand up in the middle of Parliament and shout transwomen are men.

But they could put out feelers, mull over a rapist in women's prison. And they could certainly tackle the issue of John Bercow's decision to disallow the question in the House of Commons.

There are too many things happening in the press to leave your head below the parapet. You have to pick a side.

Most people will not be picking the side of a rapist.

So it's time.

They need to step up. Politicians need to step up now, right now Because if they don't, they have picked a side.

I actually agree with positively too, even though it contradicts my smoke/fire thing.

I think it's a bit much being angry at what is basically the victim of bullying and intimidation.
Yes they may have more power than the likes of us, but that would disappear in a flash if they spoke out.

I have noticed that James Kirkup's articles have become more and more explicit in asking politicians to speak up. He started off by hinting and now outright says it. He's a patient and polite man so you can feel his frustration.

There is nothing I dislike more than a cavilling, pusillanimous politician.

Remember this if you are reading: I will take note when you cowards eventually say something and I will remember forever that you let ordinary women risk jobs, reputations, even physical safety to do this work for you.