Trans actors complaining about casting

lol at casting real vampires

Actually it is.

Not quite as simplistic as that now, is it.

So they're allowed to play act at being women but women are not allowed to play act at being them.

Well - we can agree to disagree which is further than most arguments get in this debate!

They can't have it both ways if trans actors want the transpeople parts reserved for them then any roles that represent a woman who was born a woman should be reserved for such women. Or do they just want the benefits to flow in one direction (theirs) yet again?

Urbanbeetle

I know nothing about the relative quality of trans and non-trans actors, or about the film industry. I would say that if that there are equally good trans and non-trans actors available to casting agents, and all else being equal, there is no reason why either should be prioritized.

You say that a biological man would not have a deep understanding of small nuanced movements that a trans woman may make to particularly feminise what might be seen as masculine movement.

But from what I’ve seen on TV, u-tube etc, I would say that most transwomen haven’t got the least idea how to feminise what might be seen as masculine movement. They seem outlandishly stereotypical.
On the other hand, I’d have thought that this kind of thing was the stock-in-trade of a professional actor.

My view is that transwomen and male actors are both biological men copying women, and professional actors do it better.

That meant - a biological man who hasn’t transitioned.

And a biological man would not have a deep understanding of small nuanced movements that a trans woman may make to particularly ‘feminise’ what might be seen as ‘masculine’ movement.

I know I don’t sound very articulate about this - I’m not in the industry so what I’m trying to say is just based on what feels right. If you are an actor, you probably know more than I do about this.

I get your point. But it seems to assume that trans-actors may not be capable of the same high quality of acting as non-trans actors. I guess my argument is assuming that there are equally good trans and non trans actors available to casting agents.

Urbanbeetle

I've screwed up the italics, but I hope you can understand it!

Urbanbeetle

I’m assuming that the ‘specific characteristic’ that you think an actor should have if they’re portraying a transwoman is that they should look something like a biological man. Is that what you mean? If so, I would ask again why the actor should not be a biological man. I would also ask how you square your position with the acknowledgment that ‘if an actor has lived through transition, they MAY have physical features which match the part …’ (Doesn’t this imply that the ‘specific characteristic’ – ie looking something like a biological man - is not in fact necessary?)

You say that ‘I know actors don’t have to live the experience they are recreating but when it is possible to give a role to someone who has, surely that is more likely to lead to a more authentic performance …’
I disagree. I think that what conveys authenticity is the quality of the acting. Like most people I’ve experienced grief and joy, but I couldn’t begin to ‘act’ those experiences to others.

Sorry, that was for @Howard97A

I guess what I mean is that they have the characteristics they have (which in my case would be being deaf, or being a biological woman, or being the age I am) .

Unless a director very specifically wanted to portray children in the bodies of adults (like’Blue Remembered Hills’) then I would never be cast as a 12 year old. Looking aged 12 is not part of my set of characteristics.

I.e. if an actor has lived through transition, they MAY have physical features which match the part such as one or more of things like hands or throats which resemble those of their birth gender. They may have slightly exaggerated awareness of movement and voice, a greater caution about small movements which could be seen as less feminine or less masculine in the social construct. It could be other things I am not aware of. I don’t know because I’m not trans and I haven’t lived that experience - that is my understanding.

I know actors don’t have to live the experience they are recreating but when it is possible to give a role to someone who has, surely that is more likely to lead to a more authentic performance as well as offering a fairer and equitable casting policy?

If you hear someone speaking in your regional accent who isn’t from your region, can’t you, as an insider, usually tell? Others from outside might not always be able to do so but you, as a speaker of English in that accent can tell. It might not always be possible but to cast a Liverpool character with someone who has an authentic Liverpool accent is always going to be more convincing than a ‘learnt’ one, however good.

I do understand the point about big name actors leading to higher revenues. For production companies, film, tv and stage entertainment is ultimately about making money.

These are just my opinions and I am not in the industry so I accept I may be wrong.

Urbanbeetler

Any response to my post?

I think I would prefer to see transwomen play trans roles.
Because it wouod show very cleraiybthat actually no they dint pass, do have a different physionomh, despite all the surgery etc...
Rather than us getting used to see transwomen played by women and therefore who look like women. It’s feeding the myth that transwomen can be women iyswim.
If transwomen are played by men actors the fair enough.

Ha! They all played it trans back in the day!

Only the female parts. Hamlet, of course, was played by a man.

Caitlin Jenner was on the Last Leg talking about this. They said thry were happy for Eddie Redmaine playing a trans part and thought it didn't really matter as it's all acting and was advised not to make that view public because there would be backlash 'within the community'. Then the two of them were at the same party and pressure was applied to stay away so Caitlin never got to say well done.

It was quite interesting hearing Caitlin essentially acknowledge that TRAs are trying to silence debate within the trans community as well.

Ha! They all played it trans back in the day!

I saw Maxine Peake give her Hamlet and was perfectly happy with her playing a young man. And then I heard her interviewed and she said 'I'm playing it trans' and I wanted to shout at her for being so fucking stupid.

Well, it's quite clear that for the purposes of the actor debate, TRAs are being very specific in their definition - they mean someone MtF or FtM. This is very much what I meant about wanting two contradictory things. Essentially, there is a desire for representation, but and equal desire for everyone to pretend that certsin people pass. This won't really work with non binary stuff, because almost every individual is, and it would make very, very flat entertainment to have each character a simple binary stereotype.

What is meant I should imagine is stuff like the Emmerdale situation I mentioned earlier, where an individual actor is born a certain sex and now presents as the other. It's very visible and obvious. Because essentially there's not a lot of point in pressing for visibility if no one can tell.

I can understand that, but it's got a limited shelf life as an approach, as LGB people are finding out - at first it was about presenting some gay characters, all good. Then it was a case of giving them positive storylines, again, a step forward. Then it was a further step to show the real lives of LGB people, rather than incessant tragedies or coming out stories.

But now the challenge for LGB representation onscreen is how to just have a gay character without needing to do more than a few signals the way you would do with a heterosexual character - the sight of a partner, specific casual dialogue and so on.

The Trans lobby will find that bit more difficult because a certain sector are so very, very invested in attention, and especially the part that pretends to want to break the gender binary but completely conforms to it, a la Fox and Owl looking like any old bog standard heterosexual couple so they have to keep holding up signs to set themselves apart.

And again, what is a trans actor?

According to Reddit I'm trans as I don't subscribe to gender stereotypes about my own biological sex. Can I qualify?

Urbanbeetler

I’m not sure why you think that only a trans actor can play a trans character.

I think you’d agree that merely having a specific characteristic doesn’t mean that you can express it on-stage. What characteristic or characteristics do you think a trans person would be able to express that a non-trans person would not be able to express?

You say that trans people “have a specific characteristic which matches the role of a trans character”. Can you say what this “specific characteristic” is?

So a man dressing up as a woman can't play a man who dresses up as a woman?
Or a woman can't dress up as a woman who dresses up as a man?
My Aspie brain gets very confused by this.

Yy Floral.

With disabilities in particular, if it ever gets to the stage where you have to have X to represent X, and nothing less will do, then for the most part it'll be easier not to represent X at all, and it will become invisible.