Debbie Hayton in the Times

That sounds more positive, Thank you. BernardBlacksWineIcelolly :)

now we just need to make sure all relevant organisations understand that

This is the important point.

now we just need to make sure all relevant organisations understand that

but legal Zhora

no need to change the law

the right to single sex spaces where it is proportionate is already enshrined in law

so where having single sex spaces, meaning you also exclude members of the opposite sex who have undergone / are under going gender reassignment allows you to meet a legitimate aim (like providing privacy, dignity and safety to women), then that's fine.

Rarely used and almost never for things like toilets and changing so there probably would need to be some change.

QueenYnci Sat 15-Sep- at 18 23:45:32

In my opinion, you were making yourself perfectly clear.

Being able to do that would require amendments to the Equality Act

nope

protected characteristics under the EA include gender reassignment and sex.

but they're not ranked, they're equally important.

so where having single sex spaces, meaning you also exclude members of the opposite sex who have undergone / are under going gender reassignment allows you to meet a legitimate aim (like providing privacy, dignity and safety to women), then that's fine.

Sex already is a protected characteristic in the EA.

Women can exclude males from women only spaces. Its just that some men won't take no for an answer.

I feel very negative about hope for resolving this and maintaining protection fro single sex spaces.

American gun laws crossed a line when they did nothing to prevent endless shootings at schools.

We have a similar situation here with a convicted rapist paedophile sent to a woman's jail.

The fact that no one in that system thought "well, this is a bad idea" shows me how very little the system cares about women.

We need a coup. An actual coup of women rising up saying "get out of our fucking spaces", "stop killing us", "don't move our statues", "stop paying us less", "respect our unpaid work" and whatnot.

Maybe the answer is to get rid of GRC all together. Add category of sex to the equality act and maybe THEN we can have a female only space.

Maybe the answer is to get rid of GRC all together. Add category of sec to the equality act and maybe THEN we can have a female only space.

"Being able to do that would require amendments to the Equality Act."
This is ridiculous, why is it so difficult for women to exclude men. Why do we have to justify why we want to exclude men.

I am so bloody fed up with this whole man orientated law.

Then legally we can call the security guard/bouncer/police if a man (however he identifies) is in the women's spaces and get him removed.

Being able to do that would require amendments to the Equality Act.

Guess they have no medics at Loughborough then. So stupid it makes you want to weep. Sex isn't legally assigned, sex is biological fact.

To much to hope they'll come to their senses and realise, nope, 'gender' is completely and utterly irrelevant in law (save only that people shouldn't be discriminated for not conforming to stereotypes) but that sex is relevant.

I suspect that is too much to hope for Errol. This is from a footnote in the lead researcher's previous paper. They're not even making the distinction:

To avoid repeatedly referring to sex/gender, we use “gender” to cover both the state’s legal assignment of sex or gender status, and the regulation and expression of both sex and gender identities.

Things have gone too far.

There are far too many men forcing their way into our spaces.

We have to have a zero tolerance to men in our spaces from this point on.

It makes me sad to say that, as a couple of years ago, I would of accepted people like Debbie. Even though it would of made me uncomfortable and less safe. But I have been socialised to be kind and inclusive at the expense of my own feelings.

So now the line has to be drawn on the sand and that line has to be biological woman from birth are the only people allowed in women's spaces.

I am sorry this will upset some nice people but our daughters privacy and safety is at stake and we can not tell the difference between nice and violent men, so all men must be excluded.

I am very surprised that Debbie would wait to be asked to leave a women's space. As in my experience it is those people who ignore woman's requests to leave our spaces alone ARE the most important to get out of our spaces!

I hope I misunderstood Debbie but as a parent of a daughter, you must see why this line needs to be drawn.

Then legally we can call the security guard/bouncer/police if a man (however he identifies) is in the women's spaces and get him removed.

Though ideally I wish we could exclude all biological men included post OP and ones with GRC, that would be the safest solution for women and girls.

Doyenne, I don't think you are over reacting.

That statement you quoted might as well say 'what authority do you have to say no to a man, what power do you have to stop us doing whatever we like'

Everyone knows what male and female is, everyone knows that women means adult human female and is not a social category.

If a man genuinely believes that he is female, that his problem and not something that I have to humour, accommodate or believe.

Academics are set to explore whether a person’s gender is still relevant in modern law.

To much to hope they'll come to their senses and realise, nope, 'gender' is completely and utterly irrelevant in law (save only that people shouldn't be discriminated for not conforming to stereotypes) but that sex is relevant.

Agreed. Its really hard for women to say actually no, these boundaries are mine, to the point whree it became alien. Women having confidence to say that shouldnt be heartwarming, something to celebrate, but it is and its lovely to see.

This thread is brilliant

Is self-id GRA a step towards competely abolishing any sex/gender determinants?

Yes.

Loughborough Uni press release:

Are the traditional gender distinctions of male and female an outdated concept in modern-day law?

Academics are set to explore whether a person’s gender is still relevant in modern law.

research council project page:

should gender remain a legal status assigned at birth; and what would be the implications of reforming this?

The final work package draws the research together to understand key points of disagreement and tension regarding reform; and to assess the best reform option for going forward. This recommendation will be elaborated as a draft Bill in light of the data and legal principles of "good reform" to emerge from the research.

A) Advisory Group (AG): Including representatives from the EHRC, Stonewall and EDF.

(EDF here is the Equality & Diversity Forum, not the energy supplier)

Davina Cooper's previous paper on which this research project builds.

I was looking back over the thread to see if ther had been deletions and noticed this in one of Debbie's posts, I hadn't picked up on it at the time but I really think this is worth discussing!

How do you protect against the transwomen who do not leave when they are asked because they think they really are female? So in their minds female only spaces include them

Now I don't know about anyone else but if you have a penis or have ever had a penis I cannot see how you can think you really are a female in the biological sense and not a TW.

Debbie can correct me if still around and I'm interpreting this wrong but it sounds to me like a statement that some TW actually seriously believe, despite physical evidence to the contrary that they are biological females and that any restrictions of TW in female spaces don't apply to them.

This is a level of delusion that scares me, and highlights the danger of playing along with pronouns so as not to upset anyone. Am I over reacting to this? I know it's the sort of statement one of the activists in cloud cuckoo land might make but I would assume they didn't actually believe it and dismiss without consideration as absurd, but this was said here by someone we considered an ally that's clearly intelligent and a teacher and making this point as a serious contribution to the discussion.

Debbie, if everything changed tomorrow to say that all single sex spaces must be enforced and males could not use female spaces or if they did they risk prosecution, would you respect that or would you continue to use female spaces?

Just want to say this thread is great. Completely agree with Lisa - I say no to males in female only spaces, for myself and my daughters. If you are male and you care about women (even only some women ) then you won't be in female sex only spaces in the first place.

Why are they going into schools and meeting Girl Guides and all the other things setting my hairs on end?

current threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3365319-new-kirkup-article-about-bercow-s-refusal-to-let-mps-discuss-karen-white

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3366278-Ruth-Hunt-Stonewall-CEO