Debbie Hayton in the Times

I was speaking to Zhora!

lacleg I apologize for casting aspersions suggesting that not every single member of, say, a woman‘s place is personally -and not as a matter of solidarity - fully invested in the objective of denying post srs males access to all female only spaces. I wasn’t aware that there is total uniformity of opinion enforced in these groups. I apologize.

zhora

It's a process. And an individual one at that.

Of course it's useful to show politicians that even transwomen are against self ID. It shows up for the fetishist/chancers movement it is.

This is a campaign. Any contribution that is effective is useful.

Many women are realising, however, that you cannot make a distinction in any meaningful way. In terms of practical application.

And, at the same time, it's still a bunch of men re-writing women's boundaries. For their own benefit.

They don't want to be lumped in with the chancers, understandably. It's mutually beneficial alliance.

Until you realise that any concession, shores up an ideology that is fundamentally harmful to women.

But it's a learning curve. And an unlearning of female socialisation.

Interestingly, women aren't the only ones who are surprised by the effectiveness of that unlearning. Men are also seeing it.

It's feminism in action.

WPUK are trying to build consensus. Other groups are resolutely pro-woman only. It takes about two seconds to research and understand this instead of casting aspersions.

zhora i am not sure those feminist campaigners really feel that way. The only reason for me to reject male post srs transpeople in female spaces would be solidarity with women who reject them for reasons outlined in this thread, not for a personal preference. (And to piss of TRAs. Ok, make that two reasons).

I'm sure Debbie is fighting for her own interests as much as women and girls as she claims but is there a sense that transsexuals like her have been used by some feminist campaigners? I'm sure many people at the meetings she attends probably don't want her in female toilets just as much as women on here but have perhaps kept quiet because she is useful to them in terms of showing that some trans people are on board with them. Would it have been more honest for those people to say 'Sorry Debbie, we don't want you either' ?

It's a no from me too.

Some women: Look, you know and we know you’re taking the piss and we’re not having it any more. Back the fuck off!

Female socialisation in action:
Men in 'drag' ie: appropriation of stereotypical female clothing and behaviour: Hey, that's fun, you be you.
Men feeling like a woman: Hey, that's difficult, you be you, let us help you feel more comfortable.
Men getting surgery to be a fascimile of woman: Hey, that's diffcult, let us help you feel more comfortable, there's not many of you, it doesn't affect us that much.
Men saying they're women: Erm, yep, but you and us know you're not, but we'll try to make you feel more comfortable.
Men exhibiting fetishistic behaviour, openly, and challenging women on their previous 'niceness': Erm, OK, but we're feeling a bit uncomfortable about this.
Men shouting at women - TRANSWOMEN ARE WOMEN:
Women: Ok, this is a bit too much now, we were being accommodating as per our socialisation but you're pushing the boundaries now. Can we have a chat about this?
Men shouting louder at women: BIGOTS
Women: WTF

People humour trans people really. I sometimes think women are so misogyny-steeped they take it as a compliment that a male would condescend to move among us. Then it's all a bit 'don't mention the war' about their sex. It gives transpeople a false impression of how well they are pulling it off.
This this this.

This is a great thread. Though I'm now interested in the correlational relationship between tall/big-handed women and feminism, as there seem to be a few

I was going to say that not fully occupying all the feminine stereotypes results in reflection on same.

Then I remembered that the second-wavers got to me while I was a small child

Sixteen years ago, I was assaulted by a man in makeup and high heals, makeup and a dress. It was at a movie theatre's public toilet, with three stalls. I was alone when he kicked open the door to my stall. To this day, I believe that I wasn't badly hurt was because two women entered the bathroom, and the man in makeup and high heals took off.

Can you imagine what mark that would have left on a young girl?

Yeah I don't think Hope even calls himself a transwoman, just a man who wears makeup and dresses. He really riles people which is a sign he's doing something right..

Great thread.

Here's the thing about 'genuine transwomen' - they have thrown their lot in with women, and I do believe some of them in all sincerity ... and yet, WOMEN DON'T WANT THEM.

No matter how much you want to join our club, you don't meet the membership criteria. Sorry.

I once had an abusive boyfriend. When I finally got my head straight enough to leave him, he was in disbelief. 'But I love you' he said.

I find this whole situation a bit the same. And about as cringey as white people with dreadlocks.

Transwomen are a type of man. Men need to sort it out. And actually men's intoning, often aggressively, of 'transwomen are women' is not validation, it's banishment.

So just adding my NO to this thread. We said NO.

That fabulous transwoman who wears lovely boots (Hope??) is clear that he always uses the gents, as he has no right to access women's facilities (he also uses male pronouns, so no misgendering going on here)

Miranda is clear there is no right to female spaces, female identity, or to abuse women, and excludes himself, I say HIMself cos I think of Miranda as her...go figure.

I'm another tall one and even when I had short hair was never mistaken for a man. I think men even smell different as well as sound and look different. These people are fooling themselves.

Sotiredallthetime I'm in complete agreement with your Sun 16-Sep-18 14:17:02 post.

I think this precarious union between male transexuals and women was always going to come to a point of contention between the groups.
We are united in our opposition to self ID, that is bad for us all, but beyond that we are seeking different outcomes.

Debbie's position is that men who have had their penises removed should be allowed in womens' spaces; that the medical is more important than the legal.

But no, women have the right to say no males at all in any areas specified for females.

Hope Pink gets this. And demonstrates that feminine presenting men can use the male facilities.

Debbie, could you explain why you couldn't/wouldn't use the male facilities given that you acknowledge that you are male?

Does anyone know what Miranda Yardley's position on this is?

This is a great thread. Though I'm now interested in the correlational relationship between tall/big-handed women and feminism, as there seem to be a few (I'm another!)

Well you might want to have a word with the curator of terfblocker, gagging 50,000 women's voices.

To be fair I expect Debbie is on it!

Whether they should be able to check to see if someone's legal sex had been changed by a GRC is for debate.

You think so. I don't. What do you think will happen if they can't?

I wasn't talking about the forum. I was talking about spaces. Again I come back to the pragmatic: how do you protect against transwomen who do not leave when asked because they think they really are female? So in their minds female only spaces include them?

Debbie

I for one got that you were talking about spaces not MN. But how do you apply that to any other MTF? Including Jess Bradley, Zinnia Jones, David Challenor?

It's rarely used because EHRC added the 'case by case' requirement in the statutory code after pressure from trans orgs.

From the Code (p198):

A service provider can have a policy on provision of the service to transsexual users but should apply this policy on a case-by-case basis in order to determine whether the exclusion of a transsexual person is proportionate in the individual circumstances.

From the Codes of Practice post-consultation report:

page 11:
vii. Various transsexual stakeholder groups responded to the formal consultation and also participated in the parallel consultation events taking place on the non-statutory guidance.

Feedback from the consultation events was incorporated into the employment and services codes where appropriate, particularly on issues of confidentiality, use of single sex services and the legal definition of transgender.

page 13:
e. Services, public functions and associations
• A number of concerns were raised about the exceptions, in particular the exceptions for charities, single sex services and separate services.
These sections have been revised as a result.

Adding 'case-by-case' (which appears nowhere in the Act itself) makes the exception virtually unuseable because it makes it personal. The service provider now has to show that it was a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim to exclude this particular TW. So we get into Tara Hudson territory and we can all see where that's led us to.

Most providers of the most desperately needed women's services are not wealthy, they are voluntary orgs run on a combination of donations, small grants and local authority contracts (which they have to compete for every few years). They know if they're taken to court they might end up bankrupt. They know that if they try to use the exception they will likely not win the LA contract (because the LA wants it done as cheaply as possible and don't want to have to fund alternative services for trans, or even for men).

And because those kind of services are the most 'extreme' - DV, rape crisis etc., it sets the bar for less 'extreme' contexts like changing rooms - if Women's Aid don't use the exception for refuges it makes it much harder for changing rooms to use it.

As well as the GRA consultation, there is currently an open consultation on Enforcement of the Equality Act which asks a lot of questions about the role of the EHRC.

It's not as straightforward as the GRA consultation but the response format is a lot less structured, so if anyone has any relevant experiences or thoughts, send them a letter.