Accepting the term 'cis'?

@JackyHolyoake
Thanks for linking that essay - that was absolutely brilliant.

Women looking exactly like men is used as a gotcha for transactivists. Which irritates me, because they themselves are using the negatives of their ideology to promote it.

This. We didn't ask for this bullshit. It's a problem they created.

In the kindest possible way, nobody is going to be mistaking the results of a phalloplasty for an actual penis. I'd say the biggest issue would be possible staring due to both that and the massive trauma to either arm or thigh that would also be visible if the person was naked.

Well, but if you only glance at it? Most of us would look away before being able to make a judgement, no?

Though on the other hand, phalloplasty probably will be on the to do list of people only once they pass. And then, the issues would start with seeing a bearded guy, I doubt anyone would wait for the pants to come off.
As always, it always hinges on the right of women to call someone out /get management, if they are unsure whether someone is the wrong sex.

(In the case some transman passing: why would they even want to go to women's facilities?
I believe with transmen, the problem is rather academic? )

Anyone remember Carry On Doctor when the man is on the male ward with a sympathetic pregnancy /birth?

Oh how we laughed at the silliness of it...

Many transmen will be menstruating, breastfeeding, expressing. Have miscarriages, morning sickness.

All requiring female facilities.

If they have medicated and can pass, then it's up to them. I'm not going to police where they go.

And yes, looking like men will make it a pain in the arse for the women in the facility, should they be in a female facility.

I agree. It's a mess.

In fact part of the reason I keep going back to the donor site damage is, how can you possibly go "stealth" after that? How would you explain it to people who ask? And they will, because it's so traumatic looking that most people's reaction will be concern. How would you explain it to a worried child?

@BeyondAnOmnishambles

I haven't looked tbh.

I think I'm more talking about the outward appearance with clothes on really.

So if someone just walked by into ladies toilets or changing room in a shop maybe.

If you weren't looking closely and saw a "man" you aren't really going to know what biological sex they are?

In the kindest possible way, nobody is going to be mistaking the results of a phalloplasty for an actual penis. I'd say the biggest issue would be possible staring due to both that and the massive trauma to either arm or thigh that would also be visible if the person was naked.

Oh sorry, yes. When I say woman I mean an adult human female.

A transman is an adult human female.

Plus - regardless of what the neopenis looks like - the massive arm and leg scarring would be a big clue...

Thank you for answering.

Will follow the discussion with interest.

"And yes, if you're a woman, you access female facilities. It's the only condition"

Brown, I think datun is using the standard definition of woman there (adult human female) regardless of gender presentation. So yes, a transman is female = use female facilities.

Medicated transmen may be more convincing due to the additive effects of testosterone, but there are still clues. Btw you mentioned neophalloplasty, have you looked at the results of it? It's not the most convincing...

TheBrownPaperTeddy

I can only speak for myself, and my position is that if you are a woman you use the woman's facilities

The fact they look like a man is something that the person themselves will have to deal with.

If they want to use the gents, crack on. I certainly wouldn't tell them they had to.

But I realise, that appearance can present a problem.

Which is one of the reasons I disagree with the ideology in the first place. It enjoys the problems it creates.

Women looking exactly like men is used as a gotcha for transactivists. Which irritates me, because they themselves are using the negatives of their ideology to promote it.

Doesn't this make things very difficult?

So if I'm in my swimming pool changing room a person could walk in who looks just like a man. I won't have any idea if he is a man (XY) a man self identifying as a woman or a transman who should be there?

How do we deal with that then?

@Datun.

Sorry I'm not understanding the last sentence

And yes, if you're a woman, you access female facilities. It's the only condition.

Does that mean that transmen, who are in the process of transitioning, or if they are post op (understand that is very rare) that they do still use female facilities?

Just trying to get my head around this.

So you could have an XX person that has had surgery to give them a penis genuinely able to use female changing rooms because they are female genetically?

You could practically count on one hand the number of women who have phalloplasty. And it's not a penis.

Mostly it's a lot of young women identifying as men to escape objectification.

And yes, if you're a woman, you access female facilities. It's the only condition.

So if transwomen are men and need to use male toilets, changing rooms, male prisons if necessary

What facilities do transmen use?

Should they be in women's prisons, toilets, changing rooms?

So you could have an XX person that has had surgery to give them a penis genuinely able to use female changing rooms because they are female genetically?

Or is surgery the cut off point?

I am so confused I think my head might explode.

This is a good article about the ridiculousness of all this current gender bunkum:

aeon.co/essays/the-idea-that-gender-is-a-spectrum-is-a-new-gender-prison

Or what in English we usually call "pretentious". Very common in teenagers, will resolve itself with time in most cases.

This.

Demi-vapor (term coined by @cotton-blossom-jellyfish): Continuously drifting to other genders, feeling spiritually transcendental when doing so while having a clear -slightly blurred- inner visual of your genders, transitions, and positive emotions. Tied to Demi-Smoke.

Demi-smoke (term coined by @cotton-blossom-jellyfish): A transcendental, spiritual gender roughly drifting to other genders that are unable to be foreseen and understood, shrouded in darkness within your inner visual. Elevating through mystery. Caused by a lack of inner interpretation and dark emotional states. Tied to Demi-Vapor.

Or what in English we usually call "pretentious". Very common in teenagers, will resolve itself with time in most cases.

Hen, your gender is woman. It was imposed on you. Because your sex is female.
Not cis woman. Woman. As in: Adult human female. And I bet 'woman' is the one thing they say you cannot be in their world of myriad genders and full self identification.

"Cis woman", Hen.

So if my sex is female (as in born female) and I am a woman, what gender am I? Female?

Thank you for that Tumblr link @EmpressAdultHumanFemale

Loads of the gender descriptions on that list are fairly good matches for how most intelligent gender-critical feminist women seem to experience the concept of gender. I expect we could all identify with at least half a dozen of the descriptions of:

Adamasgender
Agenderflux
Alexigender
Androgyne
Anongender
Antegender
Apagender
Apconsugender
Autigender
Autogender
Blurgender
Cassgender
Ceterofluid
Ceterogender
Collgender
Commogender
Egogender
Epicene
Exgender
Genderblank
Genderfuzz
Genderpunk
Genderqueer
Girlflux
Juxera
Libragender
Maverique
Neutrois
Nonbinary
Perigender
Quoigender

So there is a place for us in this strange new gender-obsessed landscape.

The whole sorry mess though is having the concepts of sex and gender mixed up with one another. Whilst it is marvellous and liberating to have this huge spectrum of genders and no obligation to fit in with any obsolete gender stereotypes for boring old "boys" and "girls" - the fact remains that what happens in private between an aroused teenager of any gender who happens to have a penis that is able to produce sperm and another teenager of any gender who happens to have a uteres and ovaries is going to be quite binary and is going to result in babies. We really do still need to be able to talk about biology even if the rainbow spectrum nature of gender becomes fully accepted. And unfortunately it will still happen that whichever gender label a person chooses for themselves, if they get pregnant they are likely to be at risk of losing their job and being discriminated against in numerous ways, and if we have no vocabulary to speak of such people as a class how can we fight for their rights?