The term "men in dresses"

What has happened to the thread?! It's all gone Pete Tong!

Surely the word dresses is used as a short hand for “ typical women’s clothes”? It can of course be used to belittle, but often it is just a statement of fact, in particular used to make a strong point where someone who is typically male in most regards chooses to wear women’s clothes and call himself a woman.

I don’t really like the comparison with TWAW. It can never be factually correct to say that TWAW (though occasionally it might be true to say that TWAlegalW).

I like a man in a sarong (preferably on a beach in a hot climate ).
Nothing wrong with that and definitely not an insult.

Cor blimey, this thread is starting to look like Swiss cheese.

Men in dresses isn't an insult. It's a description. Men sometimes choose to take offense at this because they think that the act of putting on a dress makes them a woman. And they would therefore like us to say they are a woman because outwardly they are trying to look like that. And because they are 'women' they need access to female space. But course they aren't women. They are men. In dresses. No dress can change biology.

Where is the OP?

Having endless debates on the pages of mumsnet about this sort of thing is a waste of time, IMO. Even though the issues are important. People starting these debates are just trying to keep their issue in the public eye. Best ignore.

Personally I think it's a bit early for breakfast. But for those who are a little non-plussed by the early Weetabix intervention on this thread, I should imagine it was deployed because the OP is so obviously a GF in the opening post, and has a history of this sort of posting.

The notion that the posters here should spend time playing silly games with this sort of thing, or let it stand as a misleading accusation, or let newer posters get sucked in to a fruitless debate, or even let some nasty shit do some ratfucking posting without being challenged is just a crappy appeal to female socialization and can do one.

It's really quite 1984 the way you try to silence reasonable discussion. But you won't get away with it on a public forum.

Thing is, it is a public forum, so unless someone says something against MN rules, they can choose to engage with you, or they can talk about breakfast. Or anything else really.

And reporting someone for discussing their breakfast plans is ridiculous.

I rather like men in tights though.

Is the phrase "women in trousers" also offensive to you OP? Or just "men in dresses". If so, why?

Both are just statements of fact.

I won't presume about WHY a man might be wearing a dress at any given moment: gender dysphasia is one reason, but there are others.

So, rather than presume and risk getting it wrong, I just carry on with my day.

I might say good morning as I walk past, just as I might with anyone else I pass in my neighbourhood, or I might not.

I don't shout out "you're a man in a dress!" Even if those words might initially have come to mind.

Because they are a factual description. Like "today I'm wearing jeans and a sweater; I'm a woman in trousers."

Jaden Smith is a man in a dress and many women here have applauded him for his honesty in challenging norms of masculinity whilst not claiming to be a woman.

IIRC the TRAs weren't that impressed with him though. They felt he shouldn't express himself that way as it made it harder for MTFs who would be coded as GNC men rather than the women they clearly are.

John McLean is another outstanding man in a dress.

mobile.twitter.com/houseofmaclean/status/942079874512179200?lang=en

"Men in dresses" isn't an insult. It's a factually-accurate description of adult human males in garments that cover the torso and upper legs with a single tube. Jaden Smith is a man in a dress and many women here have applauded him for his honesty in challenging norms of masculinity whilst not claiming to be a woman.

Unlike "trans exclusionary radical feminist", which is an insult because it is factually inaccurate: our politics includes lobbying for the safety and rights of trans people who are born female.

Nice try with the DARVO though.

One of my fave men in dresses. A blast from the past.

A site-specific Google search for the term "men in dresses" on Mumsnet returns 47 results. 2 of those are for this thread. 1 is an image panel of screenshots. 10 are not from the feminist board.

So for all the many months and years of postings, the hundreds upon hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of posts, women on FWR have discussed "men in dresses" 34 times.

34 times.

https//www.google.co.uk/search?q=site%3Awww.mumsnet.com+"men+in+dresses"

I choose not to say man in a dress on the TGLWGH principle.

But I have absolutely no problem with men in dresses. I do have a problem with men in women’s spaces.

And you don't need a plate as you put the honey and lemon juice in the seed hole,and the pepper all over and it mixes in when you scoop each spoonful out.

Red Flag! Red Flag!

What is amazing is putting very lazy chilli on your sourdough before the avocado. I think it's the bit of vinegar that just elevates the whole thing.

My trousers give me the power of straddling things in an uninhibited manner. It’s super. I’m straddling a clothes horse right now.

I am totally in favor of the current crop of male YouTube stars who challenge gender stereotypes with makeup, heels and sparkly clothing. They don't call themselves trans/female and are doing manhood a massive Cavour by widening the definition of what it means to be male.

There is nothing wrong with being a man in a dress.

The OP starts by calling gender critical people "trans excluders". This makes it clear to me that they are not interested in actually having a debate or indeed "building bridges" as suggested in another thread. The gender critical position is not to exclude a person on the basis of being trans. It is to exclude (and just in certain areas such as changing rooms, prisons, refuges, sports, etc) on the basis of a person's natal sex, with possible exceptions for those born male who no longer posses a penis. Trans men would thus not be excluded. They need protection/ health care etc for exactly the same reasons natal women do.