5 of 6 medallists in a US men's & women's championship finals were biologically male

I see this thread has tired everyone out and you’ve all gone to bed. Don’t blame you. I’m off to beddy byes myself but the anger remains

Definitely humiliating if only women were tested!

Science has moved on, however, and I find it difficult to believe that any person with DSD can reach a high level of sport without having already discovered their condition. If not diagnosed at birth, when ambiguous physicality triggered genetic testing, then at puberty.

Intersex athletes would need a more nuanced approach that included both their biology and their lived experiences.

Wouldn't it be simpler to ban XY athletes from entering women's events, and XX athletes from entering men's events?
They used to , but both the Olympic Committee and IAAF stopped sex testing in this way in the 90s. It's a complex, contested area and humiliating for athletes (especially as only women were tested) who 'fail'. Hence the introduction of hormone testing. The new IAAF regs will come in to force on November 1st this year. The science behind them is still being criticized and Caster Semenya has said she will fight the IAAF. This gives a good outline of the debate: www.sportsintegrityinitiative.com/questions-remain-iaaf-differences-sex-development-regulations/

I love that the advert at the side of this thread is for the upcoming Women's T20 cricket... Another sport that women cannot play fairly against men (yes, I know that there are one or two women who have turned out for high level cricket teams - but I want fair representation, not token gestures of couple of women in a team)

Wouldn't it be simpler to ban XY athletes from entering women's events, and XX athletes from entering men's events?

I don’t see why the IOC and other sporting bodies can’t set the testosterone level for being allowed to compete in women’s events at 2.5
New IAAF regs are 5nmol/l in certain, mostly middle-distance events www.iaaf.org/news/press-release/eligibility-regulations-for-female-classifica - some think Caster Semenya would lose 7 seconds on her 800m times if she complies with the new regs, which I don't think she will. It's a very contested area www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/apr/25/iaaf-testosterone-rules-caster-semenya and many female athletes with naturally higher levels of testosterone are angry. I'm not sure what ensures the most fair rules, but I agree with the IAAF when they say:
"The IAAF divides competition into male and female classifications because male athletes have clear performance advantages in terms of size, strength and power, as a result (in particular) of increased lean body mass and increased serum haemoglobin, which in turn is due mainly to the fact that, starting from puberty, they produce 10‐30 times more testosterone than women"
There will be athletes who don't fit in this norm, but a line has to be drawn at some point, particularity athletics I guess, if the majority of female competitors are to stand a chance.

Just been reading a few articles, including this one:

www.upworthy.com/the-next-time-someone-says-trans-people-shouldn-t-get-to-play-sports-send-them-this

Basically, it takes a couple of examples of trans athletes, and essentially concludes that, because that particular individual did not completely dominate their sport, transwomen have no advantage. The author also 'cleverly' selects sports that have quite an element of skill, rather than just being about speed and strength. The way she leaps from 'this mediocre tennis player remained mediocre once she transitioned to being a woman' to 'transwomen have no advantage' is highly illogical.

Also, I am convinced it ain't just about the testosterone!

I row and used to play rugby at university and club level. If I had to play rugby against transwomen I would have been at a much higher risk of serious injury than I already was.
I also played touch rugby in single-sex and mixed-sex teams, as does my sister. You can play non-contact sports against males fairly if the balance of the team is taken into account and tactics are adjusted accordingly. However if males are competing against females for places on sports teams, then it will result in fewer females being able to compete. That also goes for rowing, which I do now.
This is intolerable.

I tired my mums dressing gown on once when I was little boy, can I get a medal too?

Ffs... In general, the male body IS physically stronger than the female body. We have denser bones (and brains lol derp) and a different muscle structure. I can throw stuff around easily that my wife struggles to simply lift. Facts count, not feelings. I am happy for anyone who is in the wrong body to live their life as they choose but it shouldn't impact anyone else or their liberties.

Can we pretty please just agree that they can have their own category for sports and keep the males / females separate. They can have their own channel on the telly too.

I don’t see why the IOC and other sporting bodies can’t set the testosterone level for being allowed to compete in women’s events at 2.5. For everyone, not just for women. Then when a person can’t get their levels that low because they’re biologically male they’re not allowed to compete because they’d have an unfair advantage. Tell them once they get their level down to 2.5 they can join in.

I mean it’s not ideal as they’d still be taller and with more muscle fibre but I understand they wouldn’t be able to get their level down to 2.5 so it would effectively stop them.

I know we say that transgender and intersex are two entirely different things, which they are. However, does anyone remember the controversy surrounding the ladies' 800 metre final at Rio 2016? It was won by Caster Semenya, who is intersex. It was also suspected that the athletes finishing 2nd and 3rd were also intersex, though I don't know if this was ever confirmed. I don't know the exact nature of Semenya's condition, but I do know she has an elevated testosterone level, and physically she doesn't fit the typical body type for a female 800 metre runner. Lynsey Sharp, who came 6th, pretty much broke down on camera afterwards, and was villified for it. Paula Radcliffe did come out and say she thought that intersex athletes should be taking drugs to suppress their testosterone levels.

I am curious as to Paula Radcliffe's views on this issue. If she can see the unfairness of intersex athletes with high testosterone competing against normal females, how will she feel about actual males competing against females? Paula has nothing to lose as her professional career is over anyway (nothing to lose except her marathon world record, of course). We could do with someone like her on side.

SophoclesTheFox I can't understand it either, it really seems to me we are in a Stalinist state ( here, US, Canada etc), where anyone with a dissenting view, gets ostracised and labled a bigot. When we can all SEE with our own eyes, this is fucking crazy. I came across a US article some where about this and the comments were very revealing. ill see if I can find it.

I don't see how people can't see that this is legitimising actual violence against women.

It is men literally physically beating up women.

Breaking legs, smashing their faces in...and creaming themselves over being allowed to do so on fucking TV.

It is absolutely vile.

Serious offer: if anyone has a young athlete in their family who is coming up against this sort of nonsense, PM me. I have an idea, and I have money. I've said before that this is the hill I will die on.

Mine haven't come up against it - yet. But it's only a matter of time.

The women who support all this, or refuse to fight it, I don't know how in decades hence they'll be able to look at themselves in the mirror, with the destruction they're wreaking. Their own daughters will not have the rights they themselves grew up with and never fought for but were gifted by the women before them.

This. I'm not sure why they can't see the blatant rubbing nose in it misogyny of all this.

I keep coming back to this again and again.

I can't let it go. I just can't understand how people can be this stupid.

It plays right into that vein of misogyny that likes to say "Ha! You wanted equality! What, don't you like it? Too bad".

We had just about finally managed to start getting somewhere with women's sports - funding, participation, coverage - and this will shit all over that like it never happened. I don't CARE if it's only one boy, or two boys - it's one or two too many, because this should NEVER HAPPEN AT ALL.

Serious offer: if anyone has a young athlete in their family who is coming up against this sort of nonsense, PM me. I have an idea, and I have money. I've said before that this is the hill I will die on.

I woke in the night gripped with anxiety - about this single issue. I have young elite athletes in my family who train hard and this is going to destroy their hopes and dreams.

And there are women supporting it. I keep posing the same question and those supporting this should be made to sit down and answer it to camera:

Why do we have separate men's and women's sports and events in the first place?

Sorry if it's been mentioned - The BBC radio series "The Inquiry" did a show a few days ago presented by Helena Merriman: "is women's sport in trouble?" dealing with this topic www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3cswqtr - if you don't have time, the answer was yes, it is.

The thing I look at is; who is winning here?

Men.

Men get the scholarships that previously went to women, men get to watch women being battered, men get to batter women 'officially', men get to cheer at how fantastic these new styled 'women' are and how well they are doing against those other cunty types.

What do women get out of it?
I would suggest pain, long term injury, depression, and a reduction in their potential future.

Excellent.

I sadly don’t think this is going to get better any time soon.
We are all being told that unless we accept the ‘trans movement ‘ then we are small minded and prejudiced.
It’s men isn’t it? It always has been and it probably always will be.
Throughout history women have been abused, tortured, belittled, mocked, treated as second best, given their ‘role’ and expected to abide by it.
Now, we have a new age!
So now men want to be women and women want to be men but it’s still not bloody equal is it?
How in the name of all that’s fucking sensible can a man win a women’s race (or indeed enter it in the first place) because he ‘identifies ‘ as a woman?
What an absolute pile of total shit.
If I ‘identify ‘ as a border collie would I be allowed to enter the sheep dog of the year trials?
Guessing not

MaybeDoctor - a good friend of mine got seriously hurt playing mixed hockey when she was tackled by two men at the same time. For both of them it was their first time playing mixed hockey, and they seriously underestimated the impact of the "hit" on her, it wasn't at all malicious. For her it was the last time that she picked up a hockey stick

Yes, Schrodinger - that point's been made in connection with Yearwood and his fellow cheats before.

In the States, it isn't just about winning a race, it is about scholarships to universities and colleges. It is about trashing women's futures.

Materialist - god that link: "Tifanny’s performance is made even more impressive when taken into consideration she did it against an unbeaten squad with three Olympic gold medalists in it: Fabiana Claudino, Fernanda Garay, and Waleska Menezes."

Nothing suspicious here... oh no. And Tiffany is a dainty 6'3" plus - typical height for a woman, that. Though I'm glad to see someone speaking out.

"Brazilian volleyball legend Ana Paula Henkel was one of the many who voiced her opinion on Tifanny’s record setting night:"

“We have applauded the IOC and its policies in favor of fair sports in the past. Now women who have honored these same anti-doping policies for decades, who have been clean in countless tests since the age of 16, have to watch a biological man break their records.”