Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Dr Nicola Williams on BBC2 at 10.15, Victoria Live

360 replies

PersistenceIsNotFutile · 10/09/2018 10:06

Twitter thread here: twitter.com/AskNic/status/1039073161252364288

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
LangCleg · 11/09/2018 15:00

Green

You're not listening to what people are saying.

Mumsnet has 12 million users. This little feminist chat board on the site has approaching 200 thousand visitors a month. Many feminists have the same objections to language as you do but continue to post here because it is read by thousands of people wanting to see the GC view as well as the TRA view.

Therefore, we try to abide by the rules which disallow not only "misgendering" but also TRA terms such as "cis" and "TERF".

You can do that too. Or you can be banned. Only you can decide whether the Mumsnet lurker audience is worth it or not for you. The rest of us have already had that discussion and made that decision. As you'd know if you hadn't just turned up yesterday.

Please stop teaching us to suck eggs and make your own decision.

Other than that: welcome to FWR!

OlennasWimple · 11/09/2018 14:57

Green - there are 12 million unique users of MN every month. Many have blocked the Feminism board, so they wont' see what we say on here, but a great many read these threads even if they never post on here. Occasionally there are threads where "lurkers" come out and start posting openly, usually in response to something even more outrageous than the usual TRA goading. MN's own data shows that more and more users are coming onto the site through the Feminism board - a terrific own goal for all the TRA whining about us on other MSM sites like Twitter Wink

So although I completely understand your frustration, for now I'm going to carry on using MN even with restrictions. Think of it like drinking in a pub where the landlord has some slightly odd rules about how many drinks you can buy in a round and whether regulars are allowed to stay on the pool table all night: you might think that the rules are bonkers and infuriating, but if it's the most convenient place to get a drink and the other customers are good to talk to, you might well decide to make it your local.

PositivelyPERF · 11/09/2018 14:55

GreenWi82481196 you’re very welcome to Mumsnet, but kindly stop telling those of us who have been discussing the TRA issues for years, how we should be doing it. The rules were put in place and, much as it has caused us a lot of consternation, we follow them. In return Mumsnet has banned the abusive terms TERF and CIS, being used to insult us.

Please read the rules and stick around. You’ll learn a lot. If you continue to insist on using banned terms then, as a previous poster has stated, you will come across as a TRA deliberately trying to get your comments used by the TRA activists on twitter, to ‘prove’ how ‘transphobic’ Mumsnet is.

BettyDuMonde · 11/09/2018 14:54

Being neutral about pronouns isn’t telling lies.

(Please don’t @ me, Green, you are the third new poster to do it today and it’s making you look like a sock puppet for the other accounts)

GreenWi82481196 · 11/09/2018 14:52

Setting up discussion elsewhere does not silence here on Mumsnet.
Letting TRAs make the rules for Mumnet doesn
The alternative sites I mentioned are free and not run by the likes of Aimee Challenor.

GreenWi82481196 · 11/09/2018 14:49

@BettyduMonde you refer to politeness and rudeness.
To tell lies to another person (about your sex or anything else) is not politeness, and to demand that they agree with the lies is not politeness either. It is bullying. Giving in to bullying is not politeness. It is weakness.
When I want advice about politeness I don't take it from vile thugs such as "Aimee" Challenor, "Tara" Hudson etc.
Aimee claims to have a degree and two disabled younger siblings - is it "polite" to agree just because he says so? Tara claims to have been raped - is it "polite" to agree just because he says so? Of course not. It is an insidious culture of lies. What is needed is a million women to stand up and say this loudly.
As Rebecca West said "Feminism is anything that differentiates me from a doormat".

BarrackerBarmer · 11/09/2018 14:49

I'm not on MeWe because it does not have a fraction of the public readership that MN has, and time is running out, and this forum is creating a sea change in public opinion.

It needs to be kept alive. That's why TRAs are gunning so hard for it.

Not to mention that some of the mods are, imo, gender critical and do their utmost to keep the dialogue going despite the rules.
There is a symbiotic relationship here for now.

BettyDuMonde · 11/09/2018 14:47

I can’t keep up with multiple online spaces and I like it here. I even post on some of the other boards occasionally!

I don’t think this conversation should take place in segregated spaces. It effects all of us, after all.

Totally cool with those that don’t think it’s worth the effort though - we aren’t all obliged to agree on everything (and frequently don’t)!

littlbrowndog · 11/09/2018 14:45

Peachy yogurt has set up a site. Is it called hammer.com ?

Mamaryllis · 11/09/2018 14:45

Moving discussion elsewhere also silences discussion here. It is essential that this conversation happens on an accessible platform so that GC voices are visible, so others can learn.

There is a place for ‘secret’ discussion. But being able to have this discussion here in the open is essential.

BarrackerBarmer · 11/09/2018 14:44

The thing is, Green, if you break the talk rules on this forum all we will be able to say is "remember that poster called green? She had some cracking good posts before they were all deleted and she got banned", and then your audience of several million visitors each month never gets exposed to your thoughts.

I completely respect people who cannot bend to these rules, and I personally hate the rules and think they outlaw truth.

I've chosen to pay the price of hobbling my language somewhat to gain the platform. I won't compromise the truth though. I just have to choose clunky ways of expressing it.

And I hope for the days when the moderator team simply let free speech stand.

littlbrowndog · 11/09/2018 14:43

Well
I just use their names lik3 Hudson or madison

Means we can keep chatting and that enrages them a lot

A lot

Mamaryllis · 11/09/2018 14:43

Green, maybe read the fecking site before you start, eh? There are threads and threads discussing the ‘rules’. If you continue to try to get posters to misgender (which will silence discussion because men will ban them) you will start to look like a TRA trying to close down FWR.
We are well aware of the issues.

Or, carry on. And you’ll be banned from here as well. It’s a personal choice.

You can also read millions of posts where FWR users discuss which MPs have been approached, the responses given, and other ideas to continue fighting against trans dogma.

It’s great to have another GC voice. But use it carefully, or it will disappear like others have. And we work extremely hard to be able to maintain discussion here.

Alicethroughtheblackmirror · 11/09/2018 14:41

R0wantrees

Thanks for the background info. As an aside, I find it very interesting that Jane Fae has always been so vehement about not getting a GRC. I've always assumed it was because Jane might not get the diagnosis of dysphoria off two professionals - especially considering Jane's special interests.

Or perhaps I'm just cynical.

GreenWi82481196 · 11/09/2018 14:39

There are some uncensored social media sites such as MeWe and GAB. Unless an all-women network is set up I suggest that we resume the discussion there.
Tara Hudson is a man, Ian Huntley is a man, "Karen" White is a man and "Carrie" Cooper is a man.
Pronouns: He, him, his.

BettyDuMonde · 11/09/2018 14:27

We just stick to names and initials and avoid pronouns as much as possible.
It sometimes makes the conversation rather clunky but it’s the same level of politeness I would personally use to another human beings’ face - no lies, but no deliberate rudeness either.

GreenWi82481196 · 11/09/2018 14:21

@DoeDoe You say "Mumsnet will block and ban you if you ignore their policies (which are the result of bullying from TRAs)."
I am perfectly well aware that there is bullying by TRAs. But unless we stand up to it, they are winning.
What exactly can TRAs do to Mumsnet if they don't impose this policy which is not yet enshrined in any law?
I can't think of any case where giving in to bullying led to victory.

BarrackerBarmer · 11/09/2018 14:19

Mumsnet forces us to lie, by censoring us when we won't.
But it is a hugely important open forum that is bringing this issue to many readers, do some of us have chosen to tolerate the - unfair and unethical - restrictions to talk about this ON THIS FORUM.

Nobody can force me in real life.

I pay a price with my integrity to post here, but it is worth it. I won't lie, and I won't use preferred pronouns, and I won't use misleading terminology.

But I self censor to be allowed to post.

GreenWi82481196 · 11/09/2018 14:17

You say we "must" but who is imposing that rule and what is the penalty for disregarding it?
To cave in and call a man a woman is to accept defeat from the outset. To use their jargon and allow them to appropriate language is to hand them the victory.
I have been banned from Twitter and Facebook and I now realize that it is high time that women had a social network of their own not controlled by men. Men (TRAs) are stalking and prowling all the existing websites to police them and impose their control.

arranfan · 11/09/2018 14:14

BettyDuMonde wrote: we stick around, play by the rules and talk to the lurkers (and each other)

Just posted this on PSA thread but might be relevant here on the general theme of WTGLWGH. See 2 mins in: "What's it like fighting a bloke that doesn't hit back?"

www.youtube.com/watch?v=9M83YEKezAE

GreenWi82481196 · 11/09/2018 14:12

I hope that all women who are concerned about the grave impact of gender self-ID on women's rights will use the government's online consultation on GRA to express their concerns. It would also be a good idea to write to the Minister for Women, Victoria Atkins, either directly or via your MP.
Her Email is
Experience shows you usually get better results if you write to your MP and request that they forward the letter on to the Minister. they have an obligation to do so.
I copy my own letter here in case it's of any use to those who are short of time for writing lengthy letters themselves.
Letter to Victoria Atkins MP, Minister for Women. 27th August 2018
Dear Ms Atkins,
First of all may I say that I am horrified to learn that you were driven off Twitter because of abuse and death threats. What steps have the police and twitter taken to prosecute the perpetrators?
Secondly, I welcome the remarks you made in your interview with the Daily Telegraph as reported yesterday.
" Sophie Foster
26 AUGUST 2018 • 10:21PM
TThe women’s minister has said she is “cautious” about the number of teenagers undergoing gender reassignment treatment and warned the country needs to be “particularly alert” to the issue. a
Victoria Atkins expressed concern that a rising number of teenagers were seeking “life-changing” medical interventions. Young people were undergoing treatment to change their gender because they regard it as “an answer to questions they are not asking themselves”, the minister said.
As a woman whose own MP is deaf on this subject, I urge you to question and discard all the transgender ideology being so aggressively and determinedly promoted by Stonewall, the media especially The Guardian, and vociferous trans groups worldwide. Get it out of schools!
It is a false ideology and the impact on young people and society is a disaster.
You are quite right that the escalation of Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria among teenage girls is a bad sign - it is a sign that they are being influenced by a widely proliferated media campaign. Children in our schools are being brainwashed to believe lies, that you can "change your sex" or "choose your gender". This is rubbish. We are all male or female from conception. Changing your hairstyle or clothing does not change that fact, nor does taking artificial hormones or having surgery, both of which are risky and harmful (to say nothing of the astronomical costs). Nobody is "born in the wrong body" - that is an irrational myth. Transgender ideology is unscientific, irrational, opposed to facts and commonsense.
Children who are led down this path will end up eunuchs, and I personally know some ex-trans people who deeply regret the years of pretence and self-harm.
Your sex is a fact found in the DNA of every cell in your body.
I am a woman XX and I refuse to be bullied into calling any man a woman. I object to the crimes of violent men being recorded or reported as the crimes of a woman. I object to the loss of women's SAFE SPACES such as refuges, changing rooms, public toilets, gyms and swimming pools, by making them open to men. There are many examples of the abuse of this access, and our feelings are enough without giving any further reason. The feelings of the women - the vast majority - must take precedence over the feelings of a tiny number of vociferous men such as the loathesome Aimee/Ashton Challenor who is the puppet of Stonewall.
It is an outrage for men to compete in sport as "women" - that is not competing, it is cheating. Trans"women" are MEN and they endanger women athletes by entering into competition with them. Men are taller and heavier than women, have bigger lungs, hearts and skeletons than women, regardless of taking a few pills. They even have greater bone density, meaning they can stand up to greater impact without injury. Women's sport must remain for WOMEN XX.
It is also an outrage for Penny Mordaunt to say that parliament would be fair if we had 50% men and 50% "transwomen" i.e. men in frocks pretending to be women. That would mean 100% men. As a woman and a feminist I want to be represented by real women. There is no such thing as "transphobia", that is sheer twaddle.
The insidious myth of "gender self-ID" effectively abolishes women as a biological category. It claims that you become a woman by identifying as one - but what in that case are you identifying as? You are identifying as someone who identifies as someone who identifies as...etc etc. It does not make sense.
Woman = a human with XX chromsomes. Nobody should be allowed to bully me into affirming what I know to be a lie and an ideology that does harm. That is not "trans rights" it is Stonewall dictatorship.
When I say bullying, bear in mind that the repulsive Aimee/Ashton Challenor actually brought a court injunction last year against another member of the Green Party, Andy Healey, who wanted to speak against the policy of gender-self-ID. He was forced to go to Liverpool court in spring of 2017 so he could not speak. Stonewall (which employs Aimee/Ashton as an adviser) is behind this, and they are systematically undermining the democratic rights of other people. They are determined to silence all dissent.
Gender self-ID is false and it is nonsense. It is also wrong to allow anybody to alter the sex or any other information on their birth certificate retrospectively. It sets up a dangerous precedent that facts can be edited and changed later, with the evidence erased. Society has a right to keep accurate records. You cannot change the past, you can only lie.
Gender ideology is not "progress" it is anti-social bunkum. Please tell Damian Hinds to get it out of schools and work with all other ministers to eradicate it from the Conservative party and all legislation.
More information can be found on the websites of WomansPlaceUK, FairPlayforWomen, TransgenderTrend and 4thWaveNow plus that of the campaigner Posie Parker.
Yours sincerely,
.

Sent from Outlook

FloralBunting · 11/09/2018 14:12

Betty, exactly. It's a an unhappy compromise, and I understand that not everyone can cope with it ( and the biggest hugs to them) but the compromise means we still have this platform to reach out to others on.

BettyDuMonde · 11/09/2018 14:07

But with thousands of hits a day, we stick around, play by the rules and talk to the lurkers (and each other) and have a great communal recipe swap to boot!

FloralBunting · 11/09/2018 13:57

Green, I doubt any GC poster here would disagree with you. But to continue to post on MN, we are in the ridiculous situation that we must abide by certain restrictions.

doedoe90303811 · 11/09/2018 13:53

"To do what you say would be caving in to bullying."

No, because Mumsnet will block and ban you if you ignore their policies (which are the result of bullying from TRAs).

Seriously, they will. You will see.