Dr Nicola Williams on BBC2 at 10.15, Victoria Live

Speaker forbids questions over rapists in women's prisons.

Wow. Not even trotting out 'lessons will be learned'.

So john bercow is another man in power who wants to increase vulnerable womens risk of rape?

Absolutely. I would also add cowardly.

Govt policy put a rapist in a women’s prison. Women suffered sexual assault as a result. MPs asked to debate this and question ministers. Speaker John Bercow said No

So john bercow is another man in power who wants to increase vulnerable womens risk of rape?

James Kirkup:

Govt policy put a rapist in a women’s prison. Women suffered sexual assault as a result. MPs asked to debate this and question ministers. Speaker John Bercow said No. That is a disgusting political failure.

twitter.com/jameskirkup/status/1039843626644324353

When I've got more time I'll look that up, as I thought - in fact I'm sure - there is a mechanism for 'females' to be held in the male estate if considered too dangerous for the female estate.

There is, but it's never been used I don't think (please correct me someone if wrong). AFAIK it's also in the trans guidelines that they would be expected to be held with the other women (male or otherwise) considered too dangerous. Of which there are no female examples.

It's this case in much fuller detail:

www.casemine.com/judgement/uk/5a8ff76260d03e7f57eabf57

The dates match KJ as the case in question has somebody already serving 2 strikes:

KJ thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3180050-Invited-to-talk-at-the-House-of-Lords

Yes there absolutely is a mechanism for women to be transferred to the male estate if they're deemed too dangerous to house in the female one. It's in the transgender guidelines. Why that doesn't appear to apply to rapists, I'm not sure.

Is that 2009 legal precedent Karen whatsername, the one that Lord Patel invited to the HoL?

Richard Garside (above website) also has a useful Twitter thread in which he mentions a decision he finds troubling which is in re:

To be fair to the Prison Service, this part of the Instruction is an attempt to implement a 2009 judicial review decision, a decision I find troubling. (Garside then links (see below) the relevant law report: Human rights—Transgender person —Gender status for prison allocation.)

twitter.com/RichardJGarside/status/1038009545795293186

www.newlawjournal.co.uk/content/law-reports-106

I didn't realise that about the UN policy on segregating male and female prisoners... Very useful

That is good.

Well laid out.

That's very heartening indeed Betty.

Betty

That is incredibly heartening, although I didn't know about this:

"The current Prison Service Instruction on transgender prisoners highlights a legal judgement from 2009 that stated that a male-bodied prisoner who had a gender recognition certificate as a female 'had to be transferred to the female estate even though one of her index offences was attempted rape of a woman'."

When I've got more time I'll look that up, as I thought - in fact I'm sure - there is a mechanism for 'females' to be held in the male estate if considered too dangerous for the female estate.

www.crimeandjustice.org.uk/resources/transgender-prisoners

Looking good!

I can see Tara's point about 'late transitions' (including presumably most rapists in prison), but Munroe & Paris aren't really late transitions are they?

When teens and children as young as three transition, Munroe and Paris probably can be classed as late transitioners.

I know, I'm discussing this this morning in light of the TUC decision and women feeling downhearted.

The thing is, these are OUR rights. They cannot simply give them away without asking us! They just can't. It might be bloody terrifying right now, but they are not allowed to do that.

So the way I see it, we have 2 things to do:

1. stop any changes to the GRA, that is the number one job, and if we're lucky, get some clarification on terms (like 'transsexual' and 'transgender' and 'gender reassignment'). So we hold the line. To do that we fill in the consultation and get absolutely as many people as possible to the same thing.

2. push back on POLICY - there is absolutely no good reason why cross dressing rapists are going to female jail (nor is there any good reason why a male is working as a bra fitter in marks and spencers, or little girl guides are having to shower with boys etc etc etc etc). This is because organisations are not understanding and applying the LAW WE'VE ALREADY GOT. Those are our laws! And the only reason they are doing this is TRA lobby groups asked them to before we all noticed. And now we have noticed, we very firmly ask them to change it back. This has already happened with the female changing facilities with the YMCA in the States, after THOUSANDS of complaints, and we can do that here. Government policies are a bit trickier, and more bureaucratic, but it really is JUST about changing the policy.

I appreciate it sounds flippant, but it really is THAT SIMPLE. Policy is not law. Women don't like the policies, so sufficient numbers of women say 'we are not accepting this policy, how very dare you' and that's that!!

And being associated with perverts & rapists isn't going to do much for Tara's image and ability to sell herself as this cute, horny girl.

I know somebody who cheated constantly on all his girlfriends with trans prostitutes, and was a huge consumer of trans porn.

He needed there to be no argument over the "transwomen are women" statement because he was as homophobic as he was untrustworthy. He came close to lamping me one time if my inner "I'm going to get clocked in a minute if I don't shut up" radar was in any way as accurate as it usually is. Just because I didn't buy TWAW and didn't back down at his first show of verbal force.

I know from other men I have known (who felt what happened in BKK, stayed in BKK and didn't "count") that he isn't alone in needing that reassurance that sexual/romantic contact with people with a penis isn't gay if said penis is attached to a transwoman.

That subset of clients could shrink decisively if unconvincingly female transwomen become as much the face of transwomen as the ones who pass much better. Because it is possible it will damage their self-image of "not gay", not to mention making it even harder for them to defend their "not gay" status to their circle who are already unconvinced that people with a penis are female.

People are very complicated, and I think Tara more than most will be aware of the conflict and mental workaround some men have to manage in order to have any sort of intimate relationship, in person or remotely via a camera, with a transwoman. Not to mention the anger some of them can generate if the protective facade they have built around their perceptions starts to crack.

I think Tara is many things, but I do not believe entirely stupid is one of them. I don't think any of the above is unknown information in Tara's circles. Commercial, romantic and personal safety considerations may feature quite strongly in that world and contribute considerably to how Tara, and those in similar circumstances, now choose to position themselves in the debate.

There is absolutely no law anywhere that says males get to go to female jails.

Thanks for the clarification GirlScout72.

Yes, changing policy, not law. And that makes the whole thing even worse, doesn't it? It's all completely avoidable. Legally.

Just to concur with Datun.

One clarification, there is NO LAW that says a rapist gets to be a in female jail, nor is there any law that says gender ID means anything in prison.

What has happened is the TRAs (TELI et al, with Caroline Lucas and Tara Hudson as their useful 'idiots' and leverage) changed the POLICY.

What prisons, like everywhere else are entitled to do is apply the Equality Act single sex exemptions - which in certain circumstances apply to transwomen with a GRC too.

There is absolutely no law anywhere that says males get to go to female jails.

I wonder what Caroline Lucas is feeling about the chain of events she set in motion, cos in effect Tara Hudson put Karen White in a female jail (if we boil it down)? That must be a TAD embarrassing for her, given recent events ... wonder if she'd comment?

I wonder if Tara's looking at this from a commercial angle at all.

Tara is selling a stereotype of a pornstar, constantly 'horny', etc.

And being associated with perverts & rapists isn't going to do much for Tara's image and ability to sell herself as this cute, horny girl.

Tara could be our best secret weapon yet...

Tara has some rude names for fellow transwomen who Tara doesn't seem to believe are women at all.

Tara wants to form an alliance of 'real trans'.

Tara doesn't think Munroe 'Borgdwarf' is a real trans. Nor Paris Lees.

Tara talks about 'late transitions' and 'cross dressers'. I'm not sure which these two are supposed to fall into.

It's quite odd.

I can see Tara's point about 'late transitions' (including presumably most rapists in prison), but Munroe & Paris aren't really late transitions are they?

Anyway, if Tara can't work out who is a 'real' TW and who is not, how are we supposed to?

This is on chat right now. One poster is saying it's perfectly normal to wear breast binders!

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/3362940-dd2-just-told-me-she-wants-me-to-buy-her-a-binder-and-i-think-i-handled-it-badly?pg=2&order=

Can I just point out the value of putting truly ridiculous, no one can argue for, cases on Chat and AIBU? So far this week I've done Karen White and the wiping of record that reveals sex case. There's a lot of people who don't come on this board so will only see these things on there. It's how I came to learn about this craziness.

I do try to pick ones that are instantly obvious to anyone of why they are wrong. But it would be great if more than me could start them - otherwise it just looks like I have an axe to grind. And of course the comments on these threads are fantastic.

Thank you!

Steff on Knee?
Jane Fae
Stephen Whittle
One of the pretty transman model types (who ends up looking dead wee next to the enormous transwomen)...

I'd love a full TA big brother.
^It would be amazing.

Tara wolf
Paris lee
Shon whatever
India again^
Lily of course.

Ooh yes please.