Karen White case - how MN can help build political pressure for change

Materialist, really? Farking bloody hell that's appalling.

And that is probably a contributory factor to why trump is where he is and why I fear he’ll get a second term.

There are prison rules about housing TIMs. At the next level, there is a review body to check that the right decision is made.

Gendered Intelligence have a place at the review body. It was the review body that approved the move to a female prison.

Yep. We're talking about the organisation that puts TIM's needs before women's. We are talking about the same organisation that the government commissioned to provide guidance and training across the public and private sector.

Jess P and the rest of Maria Miller's Enquiry team enabled that state of affairs, by giving undue weight to Gendered Intelligence's evidence.

I am fuming that Jess is getting plaudits for climbing half-heartedly on a bandwagon, at this late stage, and only after a catastrophe, to cover her arse.

From the last linked NPR story above, some essential nuance:

The guidelines now say that the Transgender Executive Council "will use biological sex as the initial determination" for facility assignment for transgender inmates, and a transgender inmate would be assigned to a facility based on their identified gender only "in rare cases." To make a determination about placement, the Council can consider the inmate's health and safety, the inmate's history of behavior and the security of the institution and its inmates.

According to the revisions, an inmate may also be assigned to a facility based on their self-identified gender if "there has been significant progress towards transition as demonstrated by medical and mental health history." Prison wardens are permitted to recommend transferring an inmate based on their identified gender as well.

US Rolls back protections for transgender prison inmates

[[https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/05/14/us-bureau-prisons-policy-change-endangers-transgender-prisoners US Bureau of Prisons Policy Change Endangers Transgender Prisoners:
Transgender Prisoners Face Alarming Rates of Abuse in Detention]]

The Guidelines For Protection Of Transgender Prisoners Just Got Rewritten

I have to admit, the realisation that Trump is in favour of keeping prisons aligned with sex at birth gave me a ??!! However, stopped clock x2 a day is my knee-jerk reaction to my cognitive dissonance.

Jess Phillips worked for flipping Refuge. She knows about abusive men which makes this all the more infuriating.

Not sure if prisoners in US are housed in female prisons, I don't think they are?

UK signed CEDAW in 1981 but ratified it in 1986: CEDAW in UK

No people born male should be allowed in women only spaces full stop.
If some people born male do not want to use male-only spaces, they can campaign for their own spaces.
Experience to date shows that any compromise by women on this will lead to abuse and harm to women.

Honestly, watching certain career politicians trying to square the circle and people attempting to frame it as a step forward is a bit like watching people seeing Andrew Scott appear in a Bond movie and not realize he's going to be a baddie.

It's all posturing. There is no good reason to think any steps towards securing women's safety are likely to be taken without sustained campaigning from the likes of the gobshite women here. No more than there is any ambiguity about the appearance of Moriarty in front of Daniel Craig.

Jess Phillips needs to be pressed, and pressed and have it made clear that male individuals in the female estate is NOT a case by case issue, it should be a blanket rule. She will not come to that conclusion publicly without consistent pressure.

Sorry if I spoiled Spectre for anyone.

Barracker spot on.

Either self identification is a thing - which means no checks, no case by case, every man who self declares in with biological women, and you are thereby accepting the huge damage that will inevitably and unavoidably hit those biological women as collateral damage to your lunacy

OR 'some cannot be trusted in this situation' - which means you're acknowledging that their self ID cannot be the only factor and that transwomen are transwomen, not women. Some separation HAS to be kept between the two groups on the grounds that they have penises and some will use them to harm women.

Trans specific prison provision. Get on with it. Privacy, dignity and safety for all , not just the ones with penises.

“Do you agree with the chair of the All Party Parliamentary Group on Domestic Violence that prison service rules should be changed to exclude all VAWG offenders from the women’s estate?

This would be convicted offenders?
Given the known statistics with regards reporting of VAWG and then the succesful prosecution rates?

It is the start of an important discussion though.

Bowl exactly, no prisoners born male in female prisons, end of.

Own trans wing and the PS needs to meet their needs that way.

So what do we do?
Write to MPs/MoJ?
Write to newspapers etc.?
Protest outside prisons?
Protest outside parliament?

What I’m most angry about here is the cabinet minister who is GC but is too scared to speak up. It was either Andrew Gilligan or James Kirkup who wrote about it recently (sorry newborn brain fog) and it has me utterly livid that people in high powered positions are “too scared” to speak up whilst women are being housed with rapists and sexually assaulted in prisons.

In a way, I think that's working in our favour Pam. Because it means the public are seeing the likes of Huntley and Ponting and White exploiting what is supposed to be a kind and liberal position. And that means if FPFW can get enough people to complete the consultation, people will come out much more strongly against it than they would have done.

They can no longer argue that self-ID affects no one apart from transpeople. Because it already has

The very reason why this is happening is all because of the proposals of the GRA.

Wrong.

Self ID is public policy ALREADY. A loophole in the Equality Act (gender reassignment) emboldened the government and the EHRC to advise public and private bodies that transwomen should be treated as women.

That's why police forces record male crimes as female crimes. That's why Trans Identifying Men go to female prisons. That's why Stonewall and Gendered Intelligence train police leaders and new teachers.

We've been shafted already.

He's just an extraordinarily aggressive and violent thug. So he gets a free pass to bully women in prisons.

Exactly. It's unworkable.

The theme on that thread is dreadful.

Wanting to make the crime (which has to be on an individual basis) the marker, rather than the likelihood in terms of sex.

So even if, even IF the likelihood of a woman committing the category of crime they're talking of, is virtually zero, they still want it set in stone.

Just so they can still claim that violent, raping men are the same as a fictitious violent raping woman.

Jess Phillips. Grow a fucking backbone.

You're not on this earth very long. For godsake woman, at least use some of the time to look yourself in the eye.

Tara Hudson has a string of convictions for violence. He boasts of having an extra long cock. ( It's a great selling feature in his job as a ...er...model.) He has complex mental health, substance misuse and anger management problems.

He's suing the Home Office this month because they hurt his feelings by putting him in a man's prison.

Presumably Jess supports Tara. She might even have been one of the 150,000 who petitioned for a transfer to a woman's prison for Tazzy.

You see, he hasn't been found guilty of violence against women.

He's just an extraordinarily aggressive and violent thug. So he gets a free pass to bully women in prisons.

The very reason why this is happening is all because of the proposals of the GRA. The GRA is in direct conflict of the Equality Act. The two intersect and the TRAs believe there can only be one winner because no debate will make it so.

Well, get this. Debate is on the agenda!

Why does there need to be a prior criminal record of VAWG before men can be kept out of women’s spaces?

^^ Yes. Stress, proximity, and opportunity would encourage behaviour that might otherwise seem unthinkable.

It's the same reason given for ticket turnstiles to protect train revenues. They're not that to prevent the determined fare-dodger, they're there to keep honest train users honest.

This idea doesn’t help women prisoners avoid risk from male bodied prisoners. How could it avoid that risk.. unless it kept all men out of all women’s prisons?

Why does there need to be a prior criminal record of VAWG before men can be kept out of women’s spaces? We don’t currently say to men, you are all welcome to use the women’s toilets, but not if you’ve committed VAWG. We say to men, keep your penis out of the ladies.

Male prisoners should not be housed in women’s prisons, regardless of how they identify. If a male prisoner identifies as trans and feels that this means that they can’t be housed with other male prisoners, then they can be housed in a special part of the men’s prison estate.

Jess Phillips is not a feminist, she is a career politician.

Exactly.

FWIW, I do think there is a difference between Jess and Stella. Stella has genuinely drunk the Kool Aid and is as pomo-addled as the worst of them. But she will cavil and prevaricate to hide that to protect her career. Jess, I think, is actually gender critical. But she will equally cavil and prevaricate to hide that to protect her career.

Neither is a friend to women in any practical way.