Does this person have a point about trans women in loos?

Angryresister

I'd never thought of it in those terms before.

All I can do is try and elaborate from my own personal experience.

I went through numerous counsellors, therapists, psychologists - whose help did absolutely nothing. Even after ending up being sectioned in a psych hospital after I reached crisis their own psychiatrists didn't help.

It was only when I started receiving specialist help from a gender clinic did things start getting better. From what I understand, things seem to move very quickly now - from GP to referral to clinic. In my case that didn't happen. There's no intervention BEFORE ending up in a GIC waiting room.

I'm not even sure reparative therapy would work for those with severe gender dysphoria.

The problem is that nowdays any old bod seems to get insta-diagnosed, thrown onto strong hormones and shoved onto a medical conveyor belt towards surgery. The process NEEDS to be better - and don't even get me started on the treatment model for kids.

I would also say to anyone considering changing their body in response to extreme discomfort...How do we deal with anorexic girls and women who acutely see their own bodies differently. We do not say, yes you are right and you can starve yourself if it makes you feel better. We give them help to feel better about themselves and see that they are deluded. Bloody hard situation to be in.

Knicknackpaddyflak

Thank you, but I'm no Miranda. It's taken me weeks of lurking without an account to actually gather enough courage to post something (hopefully) meaningful. I'm certainly not well versed in feminist theory or the nuances of some arguments (and wouldn't know where to begin in order to educate myself - although I'd love to).

I guess I'm a bit of a coward who's now had enough of the TRAs making my life bloody miserable too.

Still mulling over this and can't get over the confidence trick that's been pulled on women - and that some women are colluding with - making women believe that this has anything to do with us. It doesn't. It has absolutely nothing to do with us. How far would anyone get telling men they must be kind and inclusive and give up their own rights or they're just mean?

Hamster your posts illustrate so well what Miranda Yardley often says - the difference between people who identify with women and people who identify as women.

speakingwoman

12th does have a point about the double bind.

Only if you think women must always be responsible for men and their feelings. It's their double bind, not ours.

No, they do not. The fact that the system that approves transition has set things up this way is not women's fault.

Do men think all women are their loving Mummies?

Yes, and it's very mean of us not to offer to give them their bottle and pat their bum on demand.

THIS x 1000
“You see, after reading that hamster, my instinct would be to 'take you under my wing' and encourage you to be brave, come in with me to the loos, as a friend would do.
But, in reality, it's not my place to 'let you in' to women's spaces. I wonder if women have somehow unwittingly budged up in the face of men's refusal to accept men like you, only to have given an inch to then be ridden for 100 miles by the pisstakers?”

BarrackerBarmer

Thank you for your advice, and I'll accept it with all best intentions

I think the problem is (and this probably affects others with gender dysphoria too), a degree of body dysmorphia. The two seem to interlock.

I obviously support personal autonomy and everyone's self-determination over their own bodies. As I go through the medical process to ease (I won't use the word "cure) my gender dysphoria, making cosmetic alterations to bring my outward appearance in line with my sense of self is important.

Whilst I'm all too aware that the end-result will be "non-functioning", and some will see it as self-mutilation sanctioned by the medical profession - ultimately it will enable me to lead a happier existence.

I've not rushed into my transition, nor have I taken the decision to commit myself to such a "final" step lightly - but for "me", it's the right thing to do.

Essentially, and rather bluntly, it's just a cosmetic operation to make me feel better about myself. At the end of the day what I have underneath my jeans is nobody else's business other than mine and my partners. (Quick disclaimer that my partner of 6 years knew about my GD even before my first date because I told them). I'm certainly not going to go striding into a public place and go "LOOK AT THIS!"

You're right though. I've thought and reasoned my way through all of this - and I'll never dismiss other people's advice/opinions. I've tried to accept my intact male body for over 20 years and I can't. It ain't gonna change anytime soon.

I'm proud to call myself trans/GNC. It's how I identify. I don't need to encroach upon/take away anyone elses rights to justify my own existence and place in the world.

Great thread.

12th does have a point about the double bind. But that point has been answered convincingly.

Thank you for your post, Hamster.

It's incredibly frustrating to see comments that suggest women and feminists have done nothing to speak out about this when it's been a huge part of the discourse if you know where to look.

They clearly have no knowledge of FPFW, WPUK, ManFriday and all the other grassroots women's orgs that have been established exactly because of this issue.

This is in part because of the no debate tactic and because so many on and offline spaces allow no discussion or dissent.

Floral I've seen a ton of comments, mostly from men, that this is what feminists wanted so lie in the bed you've made type thing.

A few who have obviously paid a bit closer attention try to point out the differences between intersectional/3rd wave and radical/2nd wave feminism and have begrudgingly called us the best of a bad bunch!

Unfortunately yes we are going to be part of the backlash as more on the right turn their attentions to this.

^me very should say - never

Floral
now the transwoman has raped women in prison, the feminists will be happy because they got their way
Omgosh I know, I hear this so often and me very understand it but then I realise it's because the TRA agenda has infiltrated feminist collectives like feminist current who made Riley J Dennis famous and people actually think that is feminism what a shitshow

Hamster00

I think most of us on this board are painfully aware that this is also a thoroughly shit situation for transsexuals/people with gender dysphoria.

I hope you have real life support and know others like you, there seem to be more and more every time I lurk on twitter.

I’m sorry your movement has been appropriated by predatory men and that this runs the risk of damaging both your public acceptance and access to appropriate and good quality medical care.

My hope is that long term being GNC becomes the protected characteristic, that men become much more accepting and that everyone can present how they want. If that is too much of a pipe dream then I would at least like to see the Stonewall umbrella kicked to curb so that being a transvestite or a pervert is not associated with being a transsexual and that transsexuals are accepted in their own communities on a case by case basis with women retaining the ability to call out pisstakers.

I fell about laughing because I have no 'pretty' shoes, just DMs for everyday and a few sports shoes

I may recently have nearly thrown a strop because I had to wear my 'pretty' shoes and slightly tripped on uneven paving and they've started to separate toe from sole. They're only 28 years old.

I am, of course, trying to get them repaired because I can't bear the idea of shopping for another pair.

Then again, Assigned Northern at Birth...

Hamster, that was an honest post.

My advice, which you haven't sought, is to delay your surgery.
You already have reasoned right through the principles of being unable to change your sex. You are never going to be able to fool yourself because you already have acknowledged the truth, and there's no going back from that.
I don't imagine any therapist is ever able to say this to you, but if you irrevocably alter your body and you KNOW already that this will not help you to be female, it is likely that you will not end up happier or more at peace.

Consider holding off. Consider finding a way to accept your intact male body, and to be the person you actually are and can only ever be.

Don't strive for the impossible, it can never be reached and will only bring anguish. Strive to accept yourself for who you actually are.

The 'gatekeeping' at Charing Cross clinic a few years ago was legendarily awful. Trans women had to pretend to be what an old male upper-class doctor thought women should be. A friend was asked how many pairs of shoes they had, and told 'that's not enough, ask any woman about her shoe collection'. I fell about laughing because I have no 'pretty' shoes, just DMs for everyday and a few sports shoes.
That's why many people who transitioned a decade or more ago tend to dress and present themselves in a fairly similar way, very 'twinset and pearls' - they were taught they had to conform to an upper-class misogynists ideal of womanhood.
These days the clinics tend to be less ridiculous on what constitutes typical clothing for a woman, as the old guard have retired.

Hamster00 - yep, absolutely. I'm afraid the extreme TRAs have a word for people like you, and it's 'truscum'. They are not looking out for the best interests of people like you. Sorry.

I was reading various things of Twitter yesterday, as more stories revealing TRA lies are bubbling up and coming to the attention of people on the Righter end of the spectrum that I follow. (I follow a lot of people on Twitter from all viewpoints, because I'm not a deluded bubble creator who blocks our voices that I don't agree with)

It was very interesting to see how many of the Right-wing tweeters were saying versions of "Well now the transwoman has raped women in prison, the feminists will be happy because they got their way" or "Why aren't feminists standing up against these things?"

It's really demonstrating to me how much women are in the firing line for all this backlash, despite being the ones who have been calling out the warnings for the longest.

The essence of a successful black op is to create the havoc you want and have everyone blame it on the people you wish to crush.

Now these people are making it all women's problem to sort out for them, or risk losing our rights entirely.
No wonder feminist numbers are growing exponentially.

You see, after reading that hamster, my instinct would be to 'take you under my wing' and encourage you to be brave, come in with me to the loos, as a friend would do.
But, in reality, it's not my place to 'let you in' to women's spaces. I wonder if women have somehow unwittingly budged up in the face of men's refusal to accept men like you, only to have given an inch to then be ridden for 100 miles by the pisstakers?

Hamster we know but thanks. We are angry but we are not angry at you. Women are not the only people who are being hurt by this.

Can someone who identifies as trans have a peak trans moment.

I am under no illusion I am a man. Biology doesn't lie. My chromosomes do not lie. There is nothing that either myself or the greatest medical practitioners on the planet can do to change that.

I have gender dysphoria. I've had it as long as I can remember (20+ years). To alleviate it, and the mental distress it causes me, I take oestrogen and an anti-androgen. Does that make me a woman? No.

Soon, I will have surgery to further alleviate my gender dysphoria. Does as medically constructed "vagina" make me a woman? Of course it doesn't. I'll never have a period, nor give birth. Neither will I ever have the experiences that a woman will have.

Did I ever grow up or was I ever socialised as a woman? No. I've never experienced the fear of violence, rape, the discrimination and misogyny. I've been protected by male privilege all of my life.

Do I feel like a woman? Err, what does a woman feel like? I feel like me... I know I don't fit in with the societal norms of masculinity.

But even though I'm visiting a gender clinic, have a female name, present myself in a non-masculine manner, take hormones and will ultimately have surgery to change my outward appearance - does that give me the right to call myself a woman and access women's only spaces.

OF COURSE IT F*CKING DOESN'T - for all the reasons above.

I'll use disabled / gender neutral toilets, I won't visit changing rooms, or gyms or swimming pools because (a) men do not accept me and (b) because I don't have the RIGHT to be in those spaces because I'm not a woman.

Whose fault is that? Not women's, that's for sure.

Not all transwomen are demanding access to women's only spaces. Not all transwomen want to erase identities or call themselves lesbians. It makes me incandescent that this group with their "ladydicks" and AGP and god knows what are trying to someone "oust" women as a biological entity.

Some of us just want to get on with our lives quietly, realise who we are and actually respect people as human beings. I'll be honest. I'm scared. Transphobia is increasing due to the actions of these people and their ongoing quest for "rights" that we should not have.

Even when I've stood up and argued this with other *transpeople, I've been called a "traitor", "sympathiser", "not really trans". It's a cult and it's only getting worse....

Bronners78 - again, thank you. The insight of someone who has been through the RLE requirement is an eye-opener.

As for CHX's protocol and the lack of any forethought for real world difficulties/consequences...

Back in the 80s when (and even then, I was taken aback that this was OK) a gay friend was attending a psychiatrist. The friend wanted to discuss the family dynamics that had a huge part in his MH difficulties. The psychiatrist focused only on the homosexuality - and on learning that friend had never had sex with a woman insisted that he should try it out.

Now - many other issues aside (one particularly purblind woman who was actively pursuing him and had no idea he was gay) - how would that go?

Morning after: "Well, that was super-disappointing but has wholly confirmed for me that I have no sexual interest at all in women."

Woman in question. ?!!?

And what it would have done to her? Or in the psychiatrist's mind, was that a wholly irrelevant issue and shouldn't have had an effect on either her or my friend's wellbeing when he reflected on just what a heel he'd been.

I should say here that, of course, my friend didn't do this. But, I regretted that he didn't heed the advice about changing psychiatrist.