Rachel Maddow on Brett Kavanaugh’s threat to Roe V Wade (access to abortion in the USA)

Materialist very interesting and well said. Thank you.

Sorry, I should have been clearer, and quoted!

Oh yes, I follow you now! Yes, I had assumed you were talking about the 'legal personhood of the foetus' stuff, so I'm glad I asked for clarification!!

Although I can see how "legal definition of personhood" gets confusing on an abortion thread!

Sorry the first paragraph was regarding the legal personhood of businesses in America, is that what you mean?

Really not understanding your second sentence, TooMuchPenis. Any chance of a clarification? Agreeing with the second part of your post, yes.

Ah yes, the legal personhood was that I was referring to, it's bonkers. Unless it has the same responsibilities as a person it shouldn't have the same rights as person, especially when actual people barely get the same rights.

Multiple abortions could be symptoms of a bad relationship but similarly to the point I made up before, the same could then be said for large families. unfortunately, I know lots of stories of women forced to stay pregnant the whole of their relationships too. But I still wouldn't want social services questioning mothers for having 3 kids. At the end it will mean more monitoring for women and less privacy. What might be as reasonable and possibly is already the case (I went to my appts alone and don't remember the content of the questioning) is that women be seen by a doctor on their own at every appt so they can disclose and it be a standard question.

I'd take a very dim view to social service being called I get that, maybe it was a half formed though that shouldn't have been typed. My personal experience is that women I know who have had abortions have been affected before, during or after. YMMV. I still think multiple abortions are a risk factor for an abusive relationship. <a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=obgyn.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1576/toag.11.3.163.27500&ved=2ahUKEwiXyNSxv6ndAhUHDcAKHZRBDG4QFjAAegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw1DTwgGxtXnZGQAOH7Zcyeq" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">link

Tbh, while everyone's story is important - those with regret, and those without - I rarely think they add much to the basic issue. Often abortion regret is about a poorly handled situation rather than the fact of the abortion itself.

businesses in America are practically seen as people
Legally seen as people too, strangely link

Also, I am not profoundly affected by it. I was profoundly pissed off at my husband that he had not had the vasectomy when I asked and that I had to have a procedure after years of pregnancy and birth control when it was his turn. so I was annoyed at the situation but the actual abortion was fine and I'd have another if I ever got pregnant without so much as a second though especially as I know how little it did affect me. I don't think it makes me damaged, I think the fear and shame around abortions can damage women.

Agreed. China has had some horrific policies. I'm Catholic too, but I still think abortion should remain legal. When I see people boasting of their abortions I wonder how damaged they are psychologically. I don't mean that in a patronising way. I don't know anyone who has had one who hasn't been profoundly affected by it. I think there should be some form of social services intervention for a second or subsequent abortion because it signifies a high risk of that woman being in an abusive relationship or taking sexual risks due to mental health or substance abuse issues.

Any sex risks a pregnancy a highly fertile woman who gets pregnant during ovulation every time is highly likely to have two accidental pregnancies. Over the course of 30 fertile years It's very possible.

Most people I know will admit that not every single one of their children was planned exactly, would you think they should have social service intervention if they had two accidents?

I had an abortion and I'd take a very dim view to social service being called if I got pregnant again, my dh has had the snip now but it's not 100% and I'd be fucked if that was seen as my fault.

The only way that contradiction makes sense is if you view it through the prism of controlling women rather than caring about the unborn.

Pretty much the crux of it.

Now bearing in mind that prior to the ACA there was no legal requirement at all, and even now it is fairly limited, for some companies this seems like limiting religious expression. Again, very different to the UK, we are somewhere between the US and France in terms of secularism and the idea that a major fast food retailer like chick fil a being closed on a Sunday so employees can "worship if these choose" seems totally alien to us

interesting you see it that way, I'd see as the opposite. Prior to the tea party and Trump, things like open prayer in a publicly funded school would have been enough for me to reaching for the pearls and smelling salts but I've had to accept it in England as most of the schools near me are faith based and all demand "RE" with a Christian bent.

The difference to me is that businesses in America are practically seen as people, and people (same as in this country) are allowed to worship as they wish.

Still falls back to the fact that no one minds funding viagra for men who are too old to be fathers with wives who are old to get pregnant.
Sex is only bad when a woman wants it.

Regarding contraception objectors here in the US, many believe that contraception IS abortion. They don't know or believe how the various methods work and so believe that contraceptives actually cause abortions. And people here like to say they are against socialized medicine but will lose their minds if you say you want to slash Medicare (insurance through the state for older Americans).

I've yet to find a workable meeting place in the middle - I respect and believe in bodily autonomy, but abortion is that horribly unique case in which a woman's body is not the only one in the equation. It's very frustrating to be in the place I am, ideologically speaking.
Agreed, it's not a black or white issue.

NeedChoos, did you mean shouldn't die to make that decision? Sorry, I wasn't clear on the meaning of your sentence there, though the rest of the post is perfectly clear of course.

Fwiw, I have had abortions. A very long time ago, but they happened. The key to the impasse between the two positions of pro choice and pro life is in the names each positions choose for themselves.

The choice side majors on their best feature - the freedom to decide for yourself. I totally get that. The life side puts the emphasis on life - that of the mother, yes, but importantly, on the child too.

I've yet to find a workable meeting place in the middle - I respect and believe in bodily autonomy, but abortion is that horribly unique case in which a woman's body is not the only one in the equation. It's very frustrating to be in the place I am, ideologically speaking.

I think abortion should be freely available and I think that contraception should be available affordably. These 2 things allow women to control their own lives. Taking contraceptives / having an abortion impacts no-one other than the 2 people involved therefore should not be up for debate by anyone else.

Pro Life? - good for you and feel free not to have one. However I don't think that you should have a say in the decision about someone else's life. Especially because women will have abortions whether they are safe /hygienic / illegal or not. I think in this day and age women shouldn't have to have a child if they don't want one and they should die to make that decision.

Catholic /Religious - great. More power to your religious belief but again don't impose it on other people.
I don't care if your a Jedi or a nun if your not comfortable dealing with contraception / abortion then don't do that job and don't try and influence others. People should know the facts and make their own mind up.
I think education is the key - both boys and girls.
I was appalled that a close friend (male) got a hookup pregnant (Not something I would do but he's and adult etc) and didn't have a clue about what was involved, how long it took / the process to get one etc.

I am shocked but not surprised at the Russian stats - Turph

FloralBunting
Agreed. China has had some horrific policies. I'm Catholic too, but I still think abortion should remain legal. When I see people boasting of their abortions I wonder how damaged they are psychologically. I don't mean that in a patronising way. I don't know anyone who has had one who hasn't been profoundly affected by it. I think there should be some form of social services intervention for a second or subsequent abortion because it signifies a high risk of that woman being in an abusive relationship or taking sexual risks due to mental health or substance abuse issues.
Then again, that's not very "sex positive" is it?

Turph, one only has to look at the situation around reproductive freedom in China to see that.

If every "ProLife" person...
The argument they would make back at you would be to ask why it is their responsibility to feed, clothe, educate, incarcerated, rehabilitate, transport and treat the offspring of others when feeding, housing and clothing children is a parent's responsibility.
I agree with contraception bring freely available, and either cheap or free. I think sex education needs to be stepped up, and public service adverts on telly shouldn't be ruled out. I also agree that having a welfare state is a positive for the country as a whole and that we don't want to see children suffer. I'm happy to put my money where my mouth is.
But I find the shifting of responsibility really worrying. If you have a child, that child is your responsibility, not mine. I'm happy to pay my taxes, I'm happy to continue to vote in favour of the welfare state, school funding, etc but the (theoretical) argument that I must pay for a child (otherwise it would be aborted!) is emotional blackmail.
I'm neither pro life nor pro choice, I believe abortion should be legal and easily accessible but I've seen the damage it has done to some women so I believe it's a necessary evil rather than a positive. The average Russian woman has several in her lifetime and any use it as the primary form of contraception. table in Russian, open in Chrome for Google Translate
Russian men prefer not to use condoms either link and Russia has one of the fastest growing HIV epidemics in the world.
My only point there is that abortion availability can go hand in hand with mysogyny and repression.

FWIW, I am pro life to my bones - I am anti-death penalty, and I believe in making a real positive difference to all human beings, which is why I volunteer my time to charity and do many small things I have no intention of boastfully listing, because I totally agree that a significant portion of the people who claim the pro life label do so with less than credible motivations.
It's really quite frustrating to say I'm pro-life and know that a lot of people will make assumptions about my beliefs and actions which are just wrong, based on my co-pro-lifers. But that's not really new ground for a Catholic to tread, so I shall just get on with it.

Thanks Floral - I remember a blog post by an American woman who said having started out (from a right wing family, evangelical Christian background) as anti-abortion, she'd come round to being pro-choice as a damage limitation position. That you couldn't look at the stats from, say, the Gutermacher Institute and not realise that if you were really serious about reducing abortion, what you needed was freely accessible contraception, first rate sex education in schools and a decent welfare state. Because the countries with the lowest abortion rates were not those where abortion was illegal (which tended to go hand-in-hand with contraception being very hard to access), but countries in Western Europe with very liberal abortion laws - but very good social welfare and health services to go with that.

If every "ProLife" person believed in excellent healthcare, food, education, child care, housing, transportation, (perhaps music lessons), and basic income being provided for every child on the planet, I might listen to their opinions with a bit more patience.

Oh, and also they would need to support a humane, well-funded prison system, with no death penalty and lots of highly qualified therapists and educators as well as highly trained guards (to take care of all the grown-ups who were born into families where they were not wanted).

Also they would have to be working tirelessly to clean up the horrific mess being made of our planet by its burgeoning human population.