'Momentum' video on transgenderism

Yes, I think what I find so offensive about co opting the history of gay 'moral panic' is the manipulative element of people who hold homophobic views like Juno using gay people as a prop. I see the same thing in a number of Mermaids parent/child interviews - the religious parent had an issue with the gay thing, but then the child discovered they were actually trans and everything in the garden became rosy again. It's quite ugly.

I knew that link wouldn't work - it's the Alex. Drummond 'Patchwork' video where he says 'women are allowed to fix cars too' 🙄

Being homosexual doesn't involve body mutaliation or hormones, or anyone without ethics who might profit financially from pushing this on vulnerable individuals under duress or through manipulation

We should ignore the co-morbity of disability and being trans - because this is irrelevant and does raise any serious questions

We should also ignore the co-morbity of mental health issues and being trans - cos this is really helpful for the wellbeing of trans people themselves

We should ignore trans advocates who sound suspiciously like they want to 'trans away the gay'

Cos yeah it's just like 20 years ago and homophobia. Exactly like it.

If you have you eyes closed and your mind so open that your brain is covering the pavement.

Yes that's true Floral.

People don't suddenly realise that being gay is a thing because they read about it or heard about it from someone. They already knew, because they already knew they were attracted to people of the same sex.

It's true that trans people often say they read this, or saw that and that was when they realised they were trans.

People knew they were trans long before YouTube etc came along.

Do you mean that a very small number of people had gender dysphoria (ie. Severe discomfort with their sexed body) before? Because yes, that is probably true. But many trans people say they read about it etc and that's when they realised. Eg. Alex Drummond in this video:

I think what Alex is saying he had been 'struggling' with here isn't gender dysphoria (he hasn't had any surgery or anything like that I don't believe) but that he liked certain things that were normally associated with women. That doesn't make him trans, that makes him someone who likes things normally associated with women!

They are making false equivalencies between transgender ideology, and homosexuality. Transgender ideology involves people forcing others to pretend they are something they are not, and can involve changing ones body through hormones and/or surgery in order to appear as something one is not. Enacting laws that permit males to legally become women allows men to access female spaces and programs set-up to address sex based inequality, and so it clearly negatively impacts female’s rights. Teaching transgender ideology in schools encourages children to think there is something wrong with their bodies if they do not follow sex role stereotypes and so is harmful to children. Homosexuality, in contrast, is not an ideology and does not require anyone pretending anything, it does not involve changing anything about oneself, enacting laws to make homosexuality legal does not negatively impact on anyone else’s rights. Neither does teaching homosexuality in schools make children think there is something wrong with their bodies that needs changing.

The video makes this false equivalency in order to add weight to the “moral panic” argument it is clearly using here. They are saying ‘there is nothing to worry about here, it is just people panicking about nothing’. They are trying to frame our objections to this ideology and the proposed changes in law as just a fuss over nothing, which they are claiming the media has whipped up. In other words they are saying it is a “moral panic”.

I find it deeply homophobic and manipulative.

MyDoctor, that's nice. I'll raise my kids to respect and protect their boundaries and those of others and we'll all be golden. And we'll hopefully not vote for people who think gay people are trans people in denial, because that is pretty gross, really.

And I find your arguing to just accept Juno's bullshit extremely uncivil to LGB people and making ME as a lesbian feel deeply unwelcome.

For goodness sakes, pointing out anti gay sentiment and how wrong it is is not prejudice!!!!

I agree with MyDoctor about trying not to be prejudiced. I totally see the dangers in the self id element, but so many posters on on here seem to be generally uncivil towards trans individuals. I understand it's just 'collateral damage' in the wider debate but it still makes me feel uncomfortable.

Definitely have trans friends? I don't think so unless trans now means anyone who is gay.

What is going on in Labour?

People knew they were trans long before YouTube etc came along. I'm not for or against it, but I respect their right to live their life as they see fit, and will raise my children the same.

'Not making someone uncomfortable' is a great ambition.

If however the way to make them fully included and comfortable is to stamp out the rights and identities of other groups, something has got extremely fucked up somewhere and any sane person needs to do some critical thinking.

It is perfectly possible to be inclusive, welcoming and accepting of transgender people (and indeed transsexual people, who have been around a whole lot longer and are one of the groups being stamped out) without defending shit like 'gay people are trans people in denial'.

Don't judge or make them feel unwelcome then. Offering biscuits and pop doesn't require a pronoun check.

One of the things I find instructive is the 'realizing I was trans' narrative.

If someone is gay, they 'realize' it because they find themselves sexually and romantically attracted to members of the same sex. It's as simple as that.

But how many people have this narrative that they didn't know they were trans until they saw YouTube videos about it etc?

Being gay is not a learned behaviour. Identifying as trans because you are a biological female but like short hair, shopping in the men's section and feel self conscious about your breasts and are told these things are trans indicators is a learned behaviour.

My concern is that if my son or daughter brought home a trans friend, that I would say or do something that made them feel unwelcome. I try not to judge.

I wouldn't want them to feel left out.

Probably best not to lie to them though. Going to be crushing when they realise that it's not true.

but I guess if you believe yourself to be a boy, but have the body of a girl

What sorts of things might make a girl believe she was actually a boy? Do you think there could be external societal factors at play there? Do you think it would be classed as 'gender dysphoria', a mental illness? Something is 'wrong' that needs correcting, yes?

Do you believe that treatment could include trying to get that girl to accept her perfectly healthy body as it is, and that the things which make her think she is a boy are actually perfectly fine things for a girl to feel, or do you think treatment should mean total affirmation that that girl is actually indeed a boy (even though that is not actually true) and therefore needs to undergo all manner of things to make her appear on the outside more like a boy?

They definitely do have "trans" friends because it's being pushed left right and centre. How many of those children will be destroyed by these morons remains to be seen.

And the comparisons with old school thinking that educating children about homosexuality was wrong and would turn them gay is a load of crap as well.

You can't 'turn someone gay' by telling them about it and telling them that it's OK to be gay. Being gay is about what you like, you can't make someone think they are gay if they are not because they will realise they are not when they don't have feelings of attraction to the same sex! You can't force those sorts of feelings either way, they are what they are.

However I absolutely believe that you can make someone think they are transgender, if you bring them up to believe that if they like things outside certain parameters, that if they are more comfortable in certain clothes or doing certain things, that there is something wrong with them, that needs correcting.

"Why do you think these children feel uncomfortable in their own skin?"

I'm not clued up on the whole thing, but I guess if you believe yourself to be a boy, but have the body of a girl (and vice versa), that must feel pretty awkward. I wouldn't want them to feel left out.

Labour have used this tactic before. I posted this thread about a video which made a similar argument:

We need to talk about Labour
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3261952-we-need-to-talk-about-labour

Mrbatmun, shhh, we don't ask questions like that. That's conversion therapy.

MyDoctor Most definitely these children must not be cast out and need our protection - all the more as adult strangers with paraphila are drawn to them like moths to the flame, actively trying to enstrange them from family and/or anyone else, who might protect them from grooming.

Just look at Aimee Challenor - safeguarding to protect AC from daddy DC was definitely amiss, and for other kids of the family, too.

I'm assuming the numbers will increase once children who feel uncomfortable in their own skin see that society welcomes them.

Why do you think these children feel uncomfortable in their own skin?

And again this is the problem with comparing the trans agenda to the gay rights movement.

Gay people, quite rightly, didn't want being gay to be seen as a mental illness. Because being gay is just about what you like and who you find attractive isn't it?

But as part of the trans movement co-opting all things gay rights, they have had to start dropping the whole gender dysphoria 'born in the wrong body' thing. Because being gay isn't seen as a mental illness so neither should being trans. Because TRAs want to be able to compare them forever more for their 'wrong side of history' arguments, as per the video.

But, if there is no mental illness attached, then what exactly is the justification for chopping of bits of healthy body and taking drugs that will make you irreversibly sterile?