Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Some lighter reading - gender non-confirming goths oppress trans people!

159 replies

AngryAttackKittens · 03/09/2018 14:10

Given how much recent news has been horrifying I thought some of us could do with a laugh, so hear you go - Robert Smith's eyeliner is oppressive to people who want everyone to know that wearing makeup means you're a woman.

www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2017/06/23/goth_culture_needs_to_embrace_the_gender_identities_of_all_its_members.html

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
keefthebeef · 03/09/2018 15:33

It's funny isn't it? The assumptions of cretins. I remember a quiz show years and years ago where Russel Brand and Noel Fielding were larking around and deliberately losing then the final question was about football. The host (Jimmy Carr I think?!) was so convinced that they were effeminate men that he bet them 1000 points they wouldn't get the question right. But of course they are actually ultra masculine extra-testosterone fuelled men and they are both huge football fans and got it right. How could anyone anywhere ever think Noel Fielding or Russell Brand are effeminate? Only someone stupid enough to this eyeliner=woman could do that.

ScienceRoar · 03/09/2018 15:30

AAK. Miss! Miss! I know this one!!!
If showing humans your gender is the first step in the real job of reproduction, then 'showing your gender' by wearing the 'uniform' of the opposite sex will get you the sack.

(Also, promoting reproduction as your real job is the foundation of the patriarchy and has been used to oppress women for centuries).

JellySlice · 03/09/2018 15:23

Deep down your real job is to reproduce, and showing other humans your gender is the first step on that path.

Oh dear.

JellySlice · 03/09/2018 15:22

I think those of us who are trans and goth wind up becoming trapped in the binary all over again

If you consider yourself trans then you have already trapped yourself in 'the binary'. In a completely non-existent binary, a binary of stereotypes that you have colluded in.

Original poster
AngryAttackKittens · 03/09/2018 15:16

www.independent.co.uk/voices/will-smiths-son-as-the-new-face-of-louis-vuitton-womenswear-might-seem-progressive-but-its-a6797461.html

Let's see if anyone can spot the very obvious problem with this paragraph.

When you get out of bed in the morning the most important thing you have to do all day is tell the world what your gender is, because from that, everything else flows. You may think that your job is to be an office supervisor or a stockbroker or police officer but these are all human constructs. Deep down your real job is to reproduce, and showing other humans your gender is the first step on that path.

OP posts:
arranfan · 03/09/2018 15:14

If it's transphobic to wear a dress while identifying as a man (still trying to bend my brain around that) is it transphobic to wear a dress while not identifying as a woman?

This is all so reminiscent of Deborah Tannen's work. Especially the parts that state that whether you do or do not wear make-up is marked behaviour for a woman. So, if I extrapolate from "A woman's place/behaviour is usually in the wrong," then, very probably, JellySlice.

HavingALittleBabyToolshed · 03/09/2018 15:13

Apparently it was borderline transphobic to do that while identifying as a man

Will Smith’s son wore a dress and got attacked for it? Wtf?

LangCleg · 03/09/2018 15:13

I think those of us who are trans and goth wind up becoming trapped in the binary all over again

Oh, FFS. No, love, the goth got you out of it and the impossible suffocation of queer put you straight back in it again.

These people are literal violence to read, aren't they? After a paragraph, you're longing to poke out your eyes with a stick.

Original poster
AngryAttackKittens · 03/09/2018 15:07

I think this one is a sincere idiot rather than a clever satirist, sadly.

OP posts:
AbsintheFriends · 03/09/2018 15:06

Does your eye shadow mean you’re goth, or does it mean you’re trans?

It's a spoof, surely?? Tell me it's a spoof and no one is actually agonising over whether eyeliner is the hallmark of their niche oppressed identity or a direct contradiction of it...

JellySlice · 03/09/2018 15:03

If it's transphobic to wear a dress while identifying as a man (still trying to bend my brain around that) is it transphobic to wear a dress while not identifying as a woman?

MaybeDoctor · 03/09/2018 15:01

I thought all rock stars wore eyeliner. Are they transphobic?

RiverTam · 03/09/2018 14:59

Really, how on earth can Robert Smith trigger anyone?? He’s as benign a pop star as it’s possible to be, surely.

ScienceRoar · 03/09/2018 14:55

Did you notice the standfirst?
"Goth culture is a haven for gender play, but it can make trans folks feel invisible."
I'll leave it there.

Original poster
AngryAttackKittens · 03/09/2018 14:55

I remember that article! Someone should post it too.

OP posts:
numberseven · 03/09/2018 14:54

Also happened when Will Smith's kid wore a dress. Apparently it was borderline transphobic to do that while identifying as a man - if men can wear dresses how can people tell transwomen are being (stunning and brave) women when they do it??!

boatyardblues · 03/09/2018 14:52

People are always hating on goths, which seems unfair as most of the goths I knew growing up were lovely people.

KatVonSweet · 03/09/2018 14:49

I wonder if it's possible to be more self obsessed?

whathaveiforgottentoday · 03/09/2018 14:46

Dear god, I'm so glad I'm not young now. What is it with their need to pigeon hole their identities into tight little boxes.

At one time there were just mods, rockers and old people! So much simpler!

kalinkafoxtrot45 · 03/09/2018 14:41

I couldn’t figure out what they were banging on about. Someone thought they were a lassie or something? How on Earth did anyone survive the 70s and 80s?

Original poster
AngryAttackKittens · 03/09/2018 14:36

Not a goth, or my type, but this is my favorite response to the idea that wearing makeup and having long hair means a male human has a female gender identity.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khal_Drogo#/media/File:Khal_Drogo-Jason_Momoa.jpg

OP posts:
Freespeecher · 03/09/2018 14:35

If Robert Smith triggers them just wait till they see KISS.

annandale · 03/09/2018 14:35

So - because wider society associates lipstick with women, wearing lipstick as a Goth man makes people think of women, which totally stops them being able to think of you as a transwoman?

But they're still going to wear lipstick because they're too Goth not to?

What?

Original poster
AngryAttackKittens · 03/09/2018 14:34

you're not a fully styled pin-up goth if you have chest hair and stubble - that's why they're looking, because you haven't executed the look properly.

I like you, we should be friends.

RE the skinny lads in eyeliner of one's youth, I'm really hoping none of mine have lost the plot to the extent of pronoun rounds etc.

OP posts:
FanWithoutAGuard · 03/09/2018 14:34

The purpose of eyeliner is to draw attention to the eyes. Men also have eyes, and if they're pretty ones might like people to notice them.

well exactly - look at Tom whatsit in Lucifer (who I presume uses a bit of guyliner)

Swipe left for the next trending thread