Reading Pride

Signing in as a slightly older (37!) lesbian who has also been branded an evil Terf for not wanting to date someone with a penis (because, you know, LESBIAN). Then I became aware of Stonewall's definition according to which I am now apparently trans despite always having been comfortable with my body. That alienated me further, and it now feels utterly surreal that I was more comfortable coming out in 1995 than now in 2018.

I'm also an academic philosopher, and it's all kicked off in our discipline of late. See:

dailynous.com/2018/08/27/derogatory-language-philosophy-journal-hostility-discussion/

It's ironic that the author of said paper who claims TERF is not a slur populates their twitter feed with phrases like "f*k Terfs" and "Terfs are gender Nazi's."

Just thanking people for replies to me, I won't reply to them as more want to 'digest' than rather than making quick replies.
I'll reiterate that I believe nobody should be made to feel bad about only wanting relationships with people of one sex.

But I also know from trans friends how hard a transition can be. May I ask, if you knew someone wanted to fully transition but couldn't (either money or couldn't at that time because they were waiting to get it done or whatever, sorry I'm not gonna pretend to fully know about these things.) would that make a difference?

A difference in what sense?

I’m bi, so I can’t speak for lesbians. I’m primarily attracted to women but I’m in a LTR with a man. I have zero attraction to most men, they do nothing for me whatsoever. When I had a relationship crisis a few years go and nearly left my male partner, I only wanted to date women because at that point I was only attracted to women. I was told I was wrong for making the distinction between women and trans women when it came to choosing a potential partner. I was kicked out of the local LGBT and feminist community, my employer contacted and I have little to no interaction with the LGBT community in my city anymore. Funnily enough the people who treated me so badly are slowly becoming more and more GC and one by one are apologising to me.

As a bi person I am a.) “lucky” because I can present as straight and b.) do not fully understand how it feels to be monosexual. Bisexual can be attracted to both sexes and genitals and monosexual people cannot. It isn’t a preference in the same way that I prefer women to men, it is their innate sexuality.

Telling people to change their sexuality in any way, is abhorrent, is (largely) homophobic and I feel there should be more and more backing to have this type of shit reported to the police as the true hate crime it is.

Asking people who are only attracted to one sex to become bisexual to appease the feelings of another is repulsive.

I'd love the luxury of not being able to get het up, Drama The thing is I grew up gay, went through all this fight to the point of being able to marry the woman I love, and now suddenly it's bad and wrong to be homosexual again.

Apologies, read back my last post and my use of 'het up' made it sound like I think people are being silly to be upset. That is NOT what I meant! I meant more that for me personally I wouldn't join protests etc.

It is not more virtuous to be bisexual than homosexual. Being homosexual is not selfish or stupid or something that can be overcome with a bit of effort to be kinder to others.

Knicknack Well said! I hope I didn't come across as trying to be 'virtuous' I was just trying to explain why I didnt 'get it' to begin with and now I'm beginning to. Not to the point where I can get her up about it, but I can definitly see where people are coming from.

Jelly I think it's as much a disability as my depression and anxiety at the very least. It a horrid thing for anyone to feel they have to go through just to feel comfortable in their own skin.

Most of the people who make the throwaway remarks about gender critical people being fixated about what's in other people's underwear are very young and have little life experience to inform what they're saying.

Ain't that the truth. I'm revolted by penises. I have very close friends who are male, I could like many lesbians have done faked my way through enough sex to keep a marriage going and enjoyed loving the person and the family it led to, and a safe straight illusion to prevent the stigma of being gay. But I'm sexually attracted exclusively to women's bodies. That some men who identify as women are hurt and upset by my sexual orientation is not my problem, it's not my job to solve it for them, and it is not some act of 'hate' towards them. It is not more virtuous to be bisexual than homosexual. Being homosexual is not selfish or stupid or something that can be overcome with a bit of effort to be kinder to others.

Jasmine, I'm interested that you perceive lesbians who feel disenfranchised by Pride as being the ones with the problem and their concerns simply equating with being anti trans people. That says it all really.

Gender has bugger all to do with sexual orientation. I can be attracted to feminine looking women, androgynous women, butch masculine women, but never a man, or never in my 30 odd years of life to date anyway. All the people I’ve ever been attracted to have one thing in common however, and that thing is biological sex.

just go and don't overthink it.

warmwishes yes I think my own 'not getting it' may well be down to me being bi.
Tbh I think I am 'getting' it a bit now, but either way, whether I get it or not, whstever the reason someone doesnt want to have sex with someone it's their choice and I'm sorry some like hotrocker have been made to feel otherwise.

hotrocker If I was on that board I would but that's me, I like asking questions when I don't understand as I like to learn and broaden my horizons. Sometimes I even learn I've been wrong about things and it all makes me grow as a person.

Betty We had a MTF student at work (joined when they were 15) if I hadn't been told I would've not known they had even been male. But then again I think I do get what you are getting at - maybe I'm just 'gender blind' or summin as I just don't tend to care about gender. Some people do though and they have a right to protection just as trans people do. It's a difficult and horrible minefield! When my son talks about gender I just tell him he's him and that's what matters.
Namechanged I think what I said above kinda answers what you said to and thank you for your reply. That way of putting it makes more sense to me in the general way. I know my MTF friend uses the disabled toilets (though feels bad to do that) as she doesn't feel right in the men's but knows some women wouldn't feel comfortable with her in the ladies.

Sorry repulsive sounds wrong or a bad choice of words. I don't think it's a repulsive act but it I wouldn't find it remotely a turn on, in the same way as I am guessing 95% of gay men wouldn't.

As someone who is Straight and female, I can tell you that no way could I imagine enjoying sex with another person who looked male but had female genitalia. I might love the person but the idea of being intimate with female genitalia is completely repulsive. I don't know why. I own those body parts myself. The idea that a lesbian should have to accept a female penis is frankly ridiculous. It's just utter nonsense.

It's so obvious that genitals matter when it comes to sex and you don't need to be gay or lesbian to know that.

OK, this is right outside my own experience as a very boring straight woman who's never been involved in Pride, but having spent a bit of time on Twitter, is it possible that any or all of the following are true?

1. Older women who are real old school lesbians, i.e. only attracted to other women, are not going to Pride any more and are increasingly disconnected from organisations like Stonewall and publications/websites like Pink News. In a lot of cases this does appear to be because they don't feel welcome or they feel actually unsafe, which is depressing. The Manchester Pride man who has now resigned made a comment which was not only sexist, it was ageist. No wonder older women are not going.

1. A lot of people seem to go to Pride now because it's a very woke thing to do and/or it's seen as a good day out. This is nothing to do with their own sexuality. A lot of them probably identify as nonbinary or genderfluid because they reject gender stereotypes. We are living through a period where many young people accept the idea of gender identity and seem not to have grasped that sexuality is different and has a close relation to biology. See Fox and Owl for a particularly good example of this. Some of these people are gay or bisexual but a lot aren't. I would put good money on most of them settling down with a partner of the opposite sex within a decade.

1. Most of the people who make the throwaway remarks about gender critical people being fixated about what's in other people's underwear are very young and have little life experience to inform what they're saying. They don't have children and they have no grasp of the enormous difference being female can make to a person's life chances.

Hotrocker thankyou for your reply. I would never want to change you. It's your right to refuse to have anything to do with a penis. I actually also decry the trans activists who insist it's anti trans because lesbians don't want relationships with them. In my eyes it's not anti-trans (as long as they 'live and let live') to just not want a relationship with them... it's their choice.

Maybe it is because I'm bi, but I see my trans MTF person as a woman and the trans FTM person where I work as a man and I still would if I were in a relationship with them I'm pretty sure, so that's why I wondered.
I think I'm very much an 'each to their own person' - I think everyone should be free to live and love however they want as long as it doesn't negatively impact on others. Biological men wanting to live as women = no problem BUT if they insist someone is anti that because they don't want their genetalia waved in their face/don't want a relationship with them it then becomes not ok.

Take photos of two types, if you can.

(1) anti-lesbian placards, references to the London Pride demo, placards that labour the point that Trans are very much at the centre of Pride, and placards/banners that mentions te rfs (sic).

(2) I think that there is a broader issue for women - not just lesbians - about Pride because I've got the impression that men in the LBGT don't like women very much. Through the prism of London and Manchester and so much else, I now find the over-sexualised depictions of women by drag queens and gay men etc creepy, creepy, creepy. And boy, don't they go to extremes while "having a laugh". Yep, take photos of sexy trollops in their boas and basques, if you've got the time.

Mono-sexuality (homo or hetero) isn’t just about genitals - it’s also about aesthetics, smell & heap of other conscious and subconscious traits..

Cosmetically altering one’s genitals doesn’t do a jot for all the other things on the list...

Drama, why don’t you pop over to datalunch and ask the gay men whether they think genitals are a big deal?

Drama - on a personal level, it would make a difference, to me at least. But that’s not really relevant. The issue with self-ID is that women and girls faced with a stranger in the gym showers or in a hostel can’t tell the difference between someone who is genuine and someone who’s a predator. Women like the domestic violence victim in Canada who was terrified when she found herself sharing a twin room with a male-bodied individual who leered at women in the refuge. And who was then thrown out of the hostel for objecting to this.

Drama queen, the reason genitals aren’t an issue for you is because you are bisexual, you can be sexually attracted to members of either of the two sexes that make up the human race. Lesbians are homosexual females, so we are attracted to members of the same sex, and not members of the opposite sex.
You would be amazed how many times I’ve had this conversation, with my parents, my friends, and random dudes who think they can magically change me if I just gave them a chance. It has a name, it’s called homophobia.

As an add on to my previous post - I do think I kinda get what the lesbians up thread are getting at about feeling they are forced into feeling they are not welcome because they don't want relationships with people who just 'identify' as female but are still very much male. But I also know from trans friends how hard a transition can be. May I ask, if you knew someone wanted to fully transition but couldn't (either money or couldn't at that time because they were waiting to get it done or whatever, sorry I'm not gonna pretend to fully know about these things.) would that make a difference? Again asking to understand as I'm someone who believes hearing both sides is always best and I'd rather ask awkward questions then just assume.

I think your daughter and her friends sound lovely.