'Well-behaved' girls 'socialising' 'challenging' boys at primary school

Giles, I’m sorry for your experiences at school. Sounds like a poorly managed classroom environment and a shabby attempt at group work.

Many teachers and education professionals disagree with each other! Ofsted leader is not the education equivalent of the Dalai Lama/ a wise Guru.

I don’t think Cherry is making blanket statements, I think she is trying to offer an explanation as to why this may happen at schools and why it isn’t always a bad thing.

I think we could all find anecdotes that support our own perspectives.

I have never seen children held responsible for the behaviour of those they are sat with- that is obviously unfair.

It is important to remember parents don’t know the backstories of all children in a class or reasons for everything happening in a classroom? They also don’t see everything that happens with dynamics between children. It is also a fact that unfortunately schools are massively overstretched and a lot of teachers are understandably struggling .

In good practice, mixed ability and mixed seating can work very well. Bad teachers can make any teaching style unsuccessful.

Any teacher wilfully or unknowingly ignoring the needs of a child in their class is doing something wrong and there is of course a problem there!

Some articles about the lack of research supporting heavy reliance on group work, and some of the problems with it:

www.leeds.ac.uk/educol/documents/00002181.htm

www.aft.org/ae/spring2015/bennett

Cos funnily enough when the plan cabt be used like out if school or pe or the play ground lo and behold the bullies bully. The taunts and fights start. Or the undesirable behaviour starts over again

So what a it solved? Absolutely nothing.

This mixing can really backfire. Not proud to admit this but I left school thinking a. Not everyone is worth educating at secondary school, b. Not everyone should be allowed to have children

That said I once had a science partner where this worked because he liked playing with fire and acid and I was good at science so we balanced each other quite well.

cherry

The point I was making is that if behaviour isn't catching then there's no other point other than making life easier for the teacher Is sacrificing one kids education for some "greater good"

All this bull shit about teaching empathy and treating it like sone kind of privilege to be able to pass on what you have learnt is what we tell ourselves to make ourselves feel better about what the situation really is.

Which is using one child as a metaphorical and/or sometimes physical punch bag so no one has to do anything about the problem.

Dd and a group of her friends were expected to look after a boy who had a neglected and abusive background.
When he inevitably lost it they (a group of 9 year olds) were held responsible.

IME it highlights the shortcomings of schools in supporting children who may be disabled and need a different approach. Having an autistic son we experienced a hell of a lot of Buck passing and dismissal. Expecting able children to manage less able children is more of the same.

I agree that it is not just well behaved girls that are "employed" to do this. My well behaved boys were too!

Cherry you can't make blanket statements like that.

You can't say that it will always benefit both children.

This has happened to my DD2 - how does having to sit next to a boy who kicks her under the table, distracts her from her work, takes her pens / pencils off her etc help my DD? Apart from teaching her that it's her role in life to put up with bad behaviour from males for some "greater good"?

When I went in to talk to them about it, they explcitly said that they had put him next to her as he was difficult and they thought she could cope and might calm him down. I requested that next round of table moves they be split up as it wasn't fair that they were always paired (they were put together in other activities as well out of the classroom). So then he was moved away and bingo few weeks later back again. It makes her life at school stressful and difficult. How is this beneficial for her? I am very interested to know.

@CherryPavlova no one in this thread had said bad behaviour is catching, except you.

What they have said is that the pressure and expectation to manage the existing bad behaviour is too much. Entirely different.

Gileswithachainsaw I didn’t think I said bad behaviour was a good thing. The teachers have to manage it as they now have high numbers of children with behavioural problems in classes - whether that be children with SEN, children from chaotfamilies or just plain lazy/inept parenting.

What I’m saying is that the behaviour isn’t catching. Being near children with SEN or naughty children doesn’t mean your child will be naughty too. The benefits are that all children grow up more tolerant and accepting of differences.
It is the teachers responsibility to continuously monitor and adjust the plan, if necessary. We either have integration or we don’t. Given the number of children with additional needs being identified now, there aren’t enough special school places for them and SEN is woefully underfunded.

In fairness, Amanda Spielman has never taught, never led a school and has no formal training in education.

I agree with berry

Although it happened with my son ive no doubts that girls take the brunt of this

The trouble is it will stress some girls and not others so the teacher needs to be very on the ball with any problems that may arise with the girl

And i hate it when they put mixed drama groups on for gcse.....one person not giving a shit can pull everyones grades down

Yes it happens and benefits both parties. It certainly isn’t detrimental to the high achiever who can consolidate their learning through explaining and supporting a less able peer. In return, they get a better relationship and respect from someone who might have been less than kind on the playground. It’s a win win. The idea that bad behaviour is catching just doesn’t hold water

So bad behaviour isn't catching but good is?

Please tell me how bad g sandwiched between to kids manspreading over all the desk space or being obstructed from seeing the board is beneficial?

If the idea is to influence the kids then why is it not the assertive kids picked but the quiet ones who don't bother the teacher complaining?

Wehll, the head of OFSTED disagrees with you, Cyberworrier, and claims that mixed ability classes are detrimental to the more able students.

Just because the more able ones are "doing fiine" does not mean they couldn't be doing more, and you KNOW that. Of course it's nicer to have a class of B and C students rather than a class of A and D students but what about the B students that could have been A?

Yes it happens and benefits both parties. It certainly isn’t detrimental to the high achiever who can consolidate their learning through explaining and supporting a less able peer. In return, they get a better relationship and respect from someone who might have been less than kind on the playground. It’s a win win. The idea that bad behaviour is catching just doesn’t hold water.
My children grew up living alongside children with very, very challenging behaviours. Their climbing frame was put together by youngsters with criminal records. When I was in labour with my second, my eldest was cared for by a young adult foster child who had lost his licence before he’d passed his test and was prosecuted for arson. In secondary school they were always sat next to the problem children as they could often control in a way the teacher couldn’t because of years of experience.
Mine are well behaved, high achievers and very confident young adults.

I'm sure girls do hear the brunt of this.

This has also happened to my son who is quiet.
The kids do get fed up and by the end of primary he was v cynical.
One girl he used to havd to sit by and now in still his class at high school has thumped him on the bus home from secondary because she overheard him saying she's "a pain". So he wasnt blameless but basically it's not unusual for her.

I think It's a consequence of inclusion and treating bullies as victims.

The less violent get thumped. Thanks school.

As for the group work being dismissed as mumbo jumbo... well. Not sure where to start! Speaking and listening skills (especially important in schools with lots of pupils with EAL) are developed, understanding of how they are learning (metacognition), questioning each others ideas, bouncing ideas off each others, like adults do in grown up work. Developing empathy (god forbid!)

Can I just share my experience of group work. I was not a popular child. Didnt really fit in. Spent my break times mainly on my own. When it came to group work the other kids did what they wanted. They didnt really talk to me or listen to me. You then have to hand in or present work which you have very little understanding of and the teacher has no clue you don't know any of it. Not entirely sure how that's particularly helpful.

I was at a highly respected Sunday drama school from age 10-17 and really needed to get an A or above in my drama and theatre GCSE to get into the drama course to do at a college. They put me with 4 people that didn't give a crap about drama for my group work to 'pull them up a bit'. I almost had a nervous breakdown with the stress.

It's totally out of order and definitely happens.

From a different view point to many expressed here, sitting a ‘difficult’ child with a well behaved one may not be so as to use the child as unpaid labour (....), it may be so that the children can learn from each other. Goodness, some children have such difficult upbringings and don’t learn all social norms at home. It won’t help them- or society- to be sat in a corner away from all the well brought up children. At my school we always mix social groups, behaviour and ability.

Polite and bright children are pretty popular and highly regarded at my school and often children labelled troublemakers learn to apply themselves from working alongside these peers. And they learn that it can be cool to be smart and do work!

As for the group work being dismissed as mumbo jumbo... well. Not sure where to start! Speaking and listening skills (especially important in schools with lots of pupils with EAL) are developed, understanding of how they are learning (metacognition), questioning each others ideas, bouncing ideas off each others, like adults do in grown up work. Developing empathy (god forbid!).

Mixed ability groupings give everyone the opportunity to strive and do their best, not have a fixed ability mind set (I’m not good at maths, etc). Teachers obviously differentiate so some children are more supported and some are challenged further, but essentially it creates a great classroom dynamic where no one feels excluded from the best learning or like a failure aged 7 or whatever. Also, lots of research supports it as good practice in a modern classroom.
But if you want rote learning or good old fashioned schooling maybe not for you!

Common practice sixty years ago

It was. I remember in our High School, my class were gathered together one morning and told that another girl was joining us. We were asked to be nice to her and not to let her disrupt us. All fair and good, except she was the teenager from hell, the 'cock of the girls' in school and we were all scared shitless of her.

The first few weeks were hell for us quieter girls, every time she spoke to us we almost cried! It was a real fear of her. However, gradually she did settle down, stopped being disruptive and went on to take her O Levels. I saw her a few times after we left school round and about, she was ok. The rest of us achieved as we were expected to.

I don't know if I agree that younger children should be expected to police their peers. On the other hand kids are brilliant, if they know an adult needs them to help, they are usually pretty eager to please. And in this age of austerity and not enough teachers to go round, we have to work with what we have. Unless we have enough money for private education.

Yeah this happens alot.dd has been on the "rota" before.

If it worked they wouldn't still have been doing it in yr 6...

Thought doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome was the very definition of insanity....

Kesstrell your post gets right to the heart of it.

Tables? Groups? Work for some pupils, some of the time, but are simply disastrous for many children.

I was in a classroom, to observe one boy, who had multiple issues.
I pointed out to his teacher that where he was sat, with his back to the board, so he had to twist in his chair to see the board, that plus an obstacle in his way meant that only one side of the board was visible to him. I'd have lost attention and motivation , and failed to take in instructions, if I'd been sat where that child was.
Teacher's answer? Shrug. He'll have to cope , because that's what we have to do. Current orthodoxy has decreed, that's how children sit.

It's interesting how the dynamic of females being expected to be empathetic and accomodating of males and makes expecting the females to help them manage their emotions starts so early.

My well behaved child is often paired with more challenging children, he is a boy. I'm not always happy about it.

Most classes Ive seen try and spread the distractible children around and move the children in general around a lot so no one gets stuck next to a difficult child all day, every day, all year.