Is gender 100% bullshit? Or not

This is a really interesting discussion :)

I guess that even animals tend to have social structures that create different behaviours, though they may be unaware of that? I wonder at what point gendered behaviours begin to have an evolutionary point, or do all behaviours, or none? Are gendered behaviours independent of being recognised by human intelligence IYSWIM? Is a female mammal presenting herself to a male as an appeasement behaviour, any different to women who try to not to "provoke" their partners?

I’ll try and give an example

When you give birth, those feelings and behaviours to protect and nurture your child in the feminine way (yes I do mean mothers generally nurture differently to men) is overwhelming, you aren’t taught that. You might have read some books, been to classes, but fundamentally your nurture instinct is just ‘there’. This has to be biological, a way our species has survived.

I know people will pick this up with rebuttals about some women aren’t maternal etc. But logically our species could never have survived if females did not have a biological nurture behaviour. Non maternal mothers are the exception and most will have been wiped out...we still do our but to wipe them out with SS etc.

I’m simply saying that a totallycultural argument doesn’t actually do women any favours, we need to have women accepted and valued for what they really are. That’s progress in my eyes

Oh is there some robust scientific evidence that there are behaviours that are more attributable to one or other sex that are not directly related to sex and are independent of culture? Please share.

there is also a base level of instinctual behaviour built up over millions of years that crosses into what you mean as gender when you say it’s all cultural

There are some instinctual behaviours but they probably account for a tiny percentage. Most are socialised.

*we can outsource because we have consciousness

That’s what I mean by that, BUT there are still some fundamental biological differences which cross into the ‘gender construct’ argument that feminism may benefit from addressing

Totally cultural is a really hard argument to make in the face of evidence to the contrary

I think humans outsource a lot of their behaviour to culture, the cultural norms that differ across cultures (clothes etc) but there is also a base level of instinctual behaviour built up over millions of years that crosses into what you mean as gender when you say it’s all cultural.

alldayinbed If you let go of the idea that Testosterone is a male hormone (which it isn't, since men and women both have testosterone) does that theory still stand up? You could place thousands and thousands of (unmutilated) naked people into an arena and the number that don't fit the categories of male or female based upon the presence or absence of penis, testicals, breasts, vagina will be absolutely minute.

Even before birth actually. In some cultures female foetus are aborted because males are valued higher than females.

No sex is biologically remarkably simple. I suspect because it is so fundamental to species propagation . Sex makes a huge difference to some things..like baby making capability and physical size/ strength. And sex is the basis behind violence to women. Sex is easily measureable . It can be understood at a biochemical genetic level and at the larger scale human level with great consistency. It is very real. As real as heads and legs. It can be used to predict some things with unbelievable accuracy..such as who can breastfeed or who might get prostrate cancer, or who might get raped.

You are right that in all other characteristics people are on a spectrum that is not predictable based on sex and forms no other patterns. Exactly. And that's why one shouldn't say that girls are kind and boys are clever. Because it's untrue. And those characteristics can often be influenced by hormones ( including external chemicals,) possibly because they are less critical to species propagation so can be more open to mutation .

And that is why gender is such a useless or destructive concept. It is useless if gender is infinitely variable..Then it just says everyone is different. It is destructive if gender is restricted to a few categories which people are forced to adhere to, especially when they are expected to follow a gender matched to their sex

But what do you make of the mountains of research that show women are significantly (in the stats way) higher in neuroticism than men?

They are socialised into it from birth.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroticism

But what do you make of the mountains of research that show women are significantly (in the stats way) higher in neuroticism than men?

It’s dangerous to just say “it’s not true”

Literally meaning that women are more susceptible to emotions.

What does that even mean? Emotions are felt by males and females alike.

Which emotions are women more susceptible to?

Some people take drugs. That does not make them intersex. Criminy! Your argument isn't even specious. It's just silly.

I’m not saying I necessarily agree with this but it is worth looking at the facts.

The ‘more emotional’ thing about women could relate to the fact that women score consistently higher on the ‘neutoticism’ Scale on the Big 5 than men. Literally meaning that women are more susceptible to emotions.

What I definitely don’t think we should be doing is denying things that might be true. If women are more neurotic overall, the thing to do isn’t deny it, it is to work out how not to be oppressed because of this reality

We are all human.

Females humans make up just over half the human race.

Women are people. We are all different.

Throughout the world and throughout history the one thing we all have in common is our sex. Our biology.

Gender stereotypes have changed across time and culture.

Biology remains the same.